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Containers are perfect for build environments and for creating the root filesystem. The issue is that the kernel these days are super bulky and are intended fo

Containers are perfect for build environments and for creating the root filesystem. The issue is that the kernel these days are super bulky and are intended for multi-user, multi-process environments. Running a container runtime on top just makes it worse when you're looking for "isolation". This paper argues that when you build a extremely minimal kernel (i.e. ditch Linux entirely) and link your application against necessary bits of code to execute _as_ a VM, then you'll get better performance than a container and you'll get that isolation. This is in fact true based on performance studies, the follow up paper to this shows so: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2104.12721 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2104.12721 (Disclosure, co-author of the linked paper.) We ended up taking this to real workloads if you want to see it in action: https://unikraft.io/ https://unikraft.io/

melenaboija 2y ago
> Running a container runtime on top just makes it worse when you're looking for "isolation". The point of the poster was pretty clear: “The main benefit is not isolation and security”
posix_monad 2y ago
> build a extremely minimal kernel (i.e. ditch Linux entirely) and link your application against necessary bits of code It would be nice, but this is really hard to do when modern software has so many layers of crud. Good luck getting say, a PyTorch app, to work doing this without some serious time investment.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Most of that effort should be sharable. if you know you will only have one python process you can get rid of a lot of cruft. If you know you will be running in a VM then you only need the driver for the network interface the VM provides not every network interface every designed (often including ones that your hardware doesn't even physically support). So while there is serious time investment it isn't nearly as much as it would be to write a competitor to linux.
  - ascar 2y ago
    I'm not sure if I missed a bit here, but I have some colleagues doing research on unikernels for HPC and the point is that this unikernel is running directly on the hardware or hypervisor and not inside another VM. The unikernel is effectively a minimal VM and the network stack is one of the things they struggle the most with due to sheer effort.
    - fhuici 2y ago
      [One of the authors of the paper] I wouldn't recommend writing a network stack from scratch, that is a lot of effort. Instead, with the Unikraft LF project (www.unikraft.org) we took the lwip network stack and turned it into a Unikraft lib/module. At KraftCloud we also have a port of the FreeBSD stack.
- jerf 2y ago
  But you don't need to write against all the layers of crud. You only have to write against the bottom layer, the kernel API. This sort of software would have no need to specifically support "libxml" or "TLS", because that is multiple layers above what this sort of software does. The flip side is that if you want something like low-level access to your specific graphics card you may need to implement a lot of additional support. But of course nothing says you have to use this everywhere at the exclusion of everything else. There's plenty of systems in the world that from the kernel point of view are basically "I need TCP" and a whole bunch of compute and nothing else terribly special.
  - fhuici 2y ago
    [Author of the paper here] You hit the nail on the head, this is precisely what we do (kernel API compatibility) with the LF Unikraft project (the evolution of the 2017 paper) at www.unikraft.org, and kraft.cloud, a cloud platform that leverages Unikraft.
pdimitar 2y ago
Your pricing page has a mistake in the Free tier. The number 1 which is supposed to be a superscript is instead shown as HTML markup (<sup>1</sup>).
- byteknight 2y ago
  Can confirm it's present on mobile.
mark_l_watson 2y ago
I am looking at the examples. They all have a Docker file. If that just for local development on my laptop? Using the deploy command line tool is the Docker file used to determine dependencies for the hosted VM? What if a developer is using an unusual programming language, like Common Lisp. Is that doable?
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  A Dockerfile is just a file with a bunch of commands to execute and get a working "computer". https://github.com/combust-labs/firebuild https://github.com/combust-labs/firebuild is fairly aged translation of the Dockerfile to a VM rootfs.

melenaboija 2y ago

> Running a container runtime on top just makes it worse when you're looking for "isolation". The point of the poster was pretty clear: “The main benefit is not isolation and security”

posix_monad 2y ago

> build a extremely minimal kernel (i.e. ditch Linux entirely) and link your application against necessary bits of code It would be nice, but this is really hard to do when modern software has so many layers of crud. Good luck getting say, a PyTorch app, to work doing this without some serious time investment.

bluGill 2y ago
Most of that effort should be sharable. if you know you will only have one python process you can get rid of a lot of cruft. If you know you will be running in a VM then you only need the driver for the network interface the VM provides not every network interface every designed (often including ones that your hardware doesn't even physically support). So while there is serious time investment it isn't nearly as much as it would be to write a competitor to linux.
- ascar 2y ago
  I'm not sure if I missed a bit here, but I have some colleagues doing research on unikernels for HPC and the point is that this unikernel is running directly on the hardware or hypervisor and not inside another VM. The unikernel is effectively a minimal VM and the network stack is one of the things they struggle the most with due to sheer effort.
  - fhuici 2y ago
    [One of the authors of the paper] I wouldn't recommend writing a network stack from scratch, that is a lot of effort. Instead, with the Unikraft LF project (www.unikraft.org) we took the lwip network stack and turned it into a Unikraft lib/module. At KraftCloud we also have a port of the FreeBSD stack.
jerf 2y ago
But you don't need to write against all the layers of crud. You only have to write against the bottom layer, the kernel API. This sort of software would have no need to specifically support "libxml" or "TLS", because that is multiple layers above what this sort of software does. The flip side is that if you want something like low-level access to your specific graphics card you may need to implement a lot of additional support. But of course nothing says you have to use this everywhere at the exclusion of everything else. There's plenty of systems in the world that from the kernel point of view are basically "I need TCP" and a whole bunch of compute and nothing else terribly special.
- fhuici 2y ago
  [Author of the paper here] You hit the nail on the head, this is precisely what we do (kernel API compatibility) with the LF Unikraft project (the evolution of the 2017 paper) at www.unikraft.org, and kraft.cloud, a cloud platform that leverages Unikraft.

pdimitar 2y ago

Your pricing page has a mistake in the Free tier. The number 1 which is supposed to be a superscript is instead shown as HTML markup (<sup>1</sup>).

byteknight 2y ago
Can confirm it's present on mobile.

mark_l_watson 2y ago

I am looking at the examples. They all have a Docker file. If that just for local development on my laptop? Using the deploy command line tool is the Docker file used to determine dependencies for the hosted VM? What if a developer is using an unusual programming language, like Common Lisp. Is that doable?

rad_gruchalski 2y ago
A Dockerfile is just a file with a bunch of commands to execute and get a working "computer". https://github.com/combust-labs/firebuild https://github.com/combust-labs/firebuild is fairly aged translation of the Dockerfile to a VM rootfs.