8 ms·

A lot of you are taking the laws too literal. I guess it’s down to the cultural differences between the EU and the US. We have a lot of privacy laws in place re

by devjab 2y ago

A lot of you are taking the laws too literal. I guess it’s down to the cultural differences between the EU and the US. We have a lot of privacy laws in place regarding photography and other things in Europe (I guess it should be the full length since the Brits are in on it), but it’s to protect people from abuse more than it’s to limit your rights. I take pictures of my children casually in public, and I always try to not include strangers. Technically it’s illegal for me to take the pictures if a stranger is on the photo, but I’m trying to avoid it because I don’t want strangers in my picture. I never think about the law while I’m doing it. Similarly if you’re taking a photo of some cultural/historical place you’re not going to want to focus on strangers in it, unless you’re the kind of weirdo the laws are there to target. The only non-creep people these laws really impact are the photographers who actually do want to take pictures of unaware strangers for artsy reasons. I’m not entirely sure how they handle it, my guess would be that they break the law and then ask for permission afterwards and delete the photos if denied, but it’s just a guess. Anyway, I don’t think it really enters the mind of any regular person taking pictures. But it’s nice to know that if someone is breaking these laws then you can call the cops on them instead of having to make them stop taking unwanted photographs. Which is really what happened before these laws, you’d have some creep taking pictures of high school girls at their last-exam-party (day where they all go drinking in various parks - very Scandinavian), and the creeps would get beaten up by a bunch of high schoolers. Now the cops can simply arrest people taking photos, and I know some of you may think this means they arrest a lot of high schoolers, but our police officers aren’t… well… assholes.

ikmckenz 2y ago
Ah yes, the civilized legal system where everyone is breaking the law all the time, so the law gets selectively enforced and used as a weapon on people the police don’t like. But the police are never ever assholes so there’s no problems?
- moi2388 2y ago
  Pretty much. Same in for example the Netherlands. Weed is technically illegal. But nobody cares. Police won’t stop you, unless you’re being a dick. That’s precisely the point. But your cops can already do this as well, they’ll just name it disorderly conduct instead. You could of course always choose to not break the law to begin with.
- ongy 2y ago
  It's largely selectively enforced because the executive doesn't enforce it unprompted. I.e. in practice it gives everyone the right to have their right to their own likeness enforced. Which most of the time isn't taken too serious, but is an important feature at times.
- devjab 2y ago
  It has its own share of issues, but I’d argue that we have a lot fewer issues than most places. It’s part of our legal system though, that our police officers have a lot of discretion. I’d argue that strictly enforcing the photography laws would be a huuuuuge waste of police resources though. I mean, how would you really police it? They do in London due to anti-terrorist reasons, but only if you’re taking photos of thing some people might want to blow up. Of course it has issues though. Not so much in the way you seem suggest here though. They do occasionally do coordinated operations on usually enforced laws. Like set up control points at universities and check if all bikes passing by are legal. But they won’t regularly pull you over if you’re missing a reflex or similar, unless your bike is extremely unsafe.
- personomas 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    Weird, I see no fires
    - personomas 2y ago
      Obviously, I'm exaggerating. But we have war in Europe. We have other problems. We have Hungary and other countries rejecting or leaving the EU. We have voters rejecting the prominent EU parties in favor of Russian-backed parties. We have economies stagnating or starting to go backwards! We have dictatorship countries like China catching up to the EU! And this is just the beginning of the slow degradation of Europe. The slow burning of Europe. The Vize-President of Germany just recently said, "The State makes no mistakes." [0] [0] https://www.nius.de/kommentar/der-staat-macht-keine-fehler-habeck-verachtet-die-individuelle-freiheit-der-buerger/e4b720c5-7f4b-47ef-bd25-7383f3d98d89 https://www.nius.de/kommentar/der-staat-macht-keine-fehler-h...
      - kbrkbr 2y ago
        Minor correction: this is the Vice-Chancellor. Germany does not have a Vice-President.
        personomas 2y ago
        Thanks. You're right. I do live in Germany actually
      - morsch 2y ago
        If you actually read what he says[1] as opposed to some ultra-right-wing blog that picks up a soundbite and makes a diatribe out of it--, you'll find that he says that "the-stake-doesn't-make-mistakes" is what people expect, not that it's actually true. People expect, demand, that regulations and decisions are bulletproof and that's one of the causes of bureaucracy. Which is undoubtedly true, it's a cover-your-ass mentality that also exists in corporations, but governments absolutely excel at it. [1] they didn't really get it either, but at least they quote it in context: https://finanzmarktwelt.de/robert-habeck-zeigt-erschuetternde-begeisterung-fuer-buerokratie-304478/ https://finanzmarktwelt.de/robert-habeck-zeigt-erschuetternd...
- ranguna 2y ago
  I'm sorry that you have issues with the police or other groups where you're from. Where I live in the EU I personally never had any issues with these groups and the people I know that had issues were able to sort them out without any major consequences to their lives. Not saying that it's a perfect system, there will always be problems because there's not such thing as a perfect law, just a less imperfect one. The difference between the EU and the US is the people. The mindset is different, that's why things can be so lax and still work. FYI all continents and societies around the world are simultaneously burning and blooming with success. What changes is the bubble you're on. If you go on YouTube you can find an equal amount of videos and people saying that the US/EU is horrible/amazing. It all depends on the person and the person's values. I'm happy here and I completely understand those that are not, same for the the people in the US.
- oliwarner 2y ago
  You mock it, but implementations that allow people to do things if they're not a problem isn't awful if the police are fair, reasonable people who want the best for their community. I'd sooner have that than people being a pain in the arse because they're explicitly allowed to exercise rights at the cost of society. Both concepts cut both ways.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > You mock it, but implementations that allow people to do things if they're not a problem isn't awful if the police are fair, reasonable people Seems like the smarter thing to do would be to outlaw "the problem" and not leave every single person's safety/freedom entirely up to the whims and benevolence of police.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      that doesn't work because you can't define "the problem". creating a long list of cases where photography should be allowed and where it shouldn't would require the photographed person to prove that their photo falls into the cases that are a problem. that puts to much burden on them, and makes it more difficult to protect themselves. each person has a different feeling in how they are comfortable with having their pictures published. therefore the only sane thing to do is to give each individual the right to control that. it's like copyright. by default all rights are reserved, but i can give permission to copy if i wish.
constantcrying 2y ago
>The only non-creep people these laws really impact are the photographers who actually do want to take pictures of unaware strangers for artsy reasons. That just isn't true. Imagine any kind of event where you want to take photos and publish them. Now you have to get an agreement from people on who is allowed to be photographed and who's photos you are allowed to publish, assuming that not all people agreed you now have to go through every single photo figuring out which one you are allowed to use and which one you aren't. This isn't a hypothetical, I have agreed with many, many such waivers for many different kind of events. To say that this law only affects creeps is plainly false. Even if you are just planning a wedding this will affect you.
- nonagoninf 2y ago
  > I have agreed with many, many such waivers for many different kind of events. Note that no one you want to invite to your wedding is going to disagree with such a waiver.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    Most likely yes, but People get drunk at weddings. And if you are organizing any kind of corporate event it might very well be the case that someone disagrees, not asking simply isn't an option. My point is that even a normal person with completely benign motives has to consider this. Contrary to what the other poster claimed it isn't a law which only "creeps" have to care about.
    - nicbou 2y ago
      I can confirm from experience. In a few German events, the organisers asked for my permission to take/share photos, and I refused. Not a single picture of me was shared. I never had to justify why, and it never felt abnormal.
- nicbou 2y ago
  That is correct. A good example is if you are hosting a meetup, and want to share pictures of the people who presented on stage.
mharig 2y ago
I like the solution with the beatin' up more.

by devjab 2y ago

ikmckenz 2y ago

Ah yes, the civilized legal system where everyone is breaking the law all the time, so the law gets selectively enforced and used as a weapon on people the police don’t like. But the police are never ever assholes so there’s no problems?

moi2388 2y ago
Pretty much. Same in for example the Netherlands. Weed is technically illegal. But nobody cares. Police won’t stop you, unless you’re being a dick. That’s precisely the point. But your cops can already do this as well, they’ll just name it disorderly conduct instead. You could of course always choose to not break the law to begin with.
ongy 2y ago
It's largely selectively enforced because the executive doesn't enforce it unprompted. I.e. in practice it gives everyone the right to have their right to their own likeness enforced. Which most of the time isn't taken too serious, but is an important feature at times.
devjab 2y ago
It has its own share of issues, but I’d argue that we have a lot fewer issues than most places. It’s part of our legal system though, that our police officers have a lot of discretion. I’d argue that strictly enforcing the photography laws would be a huuuuuge waste of police resources though. I mean, how would you really police it? They do in London due to anti-terrorist reasons, but only if you’re taking photos of thing some people might want to blow up. Of course it has issues though. Not so much in the way you seem suggest here though. They do occasionally do coordinated operations on usually enforced laws. Like set up control points at universities and check if all bikes passing by are legal. But they won’t regularly pull you over if you’re missing a reflex or similar, unless your bike is extremely unsafe.
personomas 2y ago
[flagged]
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Weird, I see no fires
  - personomas 2y ago
    Obviously, I'm exaggerating. But we have war in Europe. We have other problems. We have Hungary and other countries rejecting or leaving the EU. We have voters rejecting the prominent EU parties in favor of Russian-backed parties. We have economies stagnating or starting to go backwards! We have dictatorship countries like China catching up to the EU! And this is just the beginning of the slow degradation of Europe. The slow burning of Europe. The Vize-President of Germany just recently said, "The State makes no mistakes." [0] [0] https://www.nius.de/kommentar/der-staat-macht-keine-fehler-habeck-verachtet-die-individuelle-freiheit-der-buerger/e4b720c5-7f4b-47ef-bd25-7383f3d98d89 https://www.nius.de/kommentar/der-staat-macht-keine-fehler-h...
    - kbrkbr 2y ago
      Minor correction: this is the Vice-Chancellor. Germany does not have a Vice-President.
      - personomas 2y ago
        Thanks. You're right. I do live in Germany actually
    - morsch 2y ago
      If you actually read what he says[1] as opposed to some ultra-right-wing blog that picks up a soundbite and makes a diatribe out of it--, you'll find that he says that "the-stake-doesn't-make-mistakes" is what people expect, not that it's actually true. People expect, demand, that regulations and decisions are bulletproof and that's one of the causes of bureaucracy. Which is undoubtedly true, it's a cover-your-ass mentality that also exists in corporations, but governments absolutely excel at it. [1] they didn't really get it either, but at least they quote it in context: https://finanzmarktwelt.de/robert-habeck-zeigt-erschuetternde-begeisterung-fuer-buerokratie-304478/ https://finanzmarktwelt.de/robert-habeck-zeigt-erschuetternd...
ranguna 2y ago
I'm sorry that you have issues with the police or other groups where you're from. Where I live in the EU I personally never had any issues with these groups and the people I know that had issues were able to sort them out without any major consequences to their lives. Not saying that it's a perfect system, there will always be problems because there's not such thing as a perfect law, just a less imperfect one. The difference between the EU and the US is the people. The mindset is different, that's why things can be so lax and still work. FYI all continents and societies around the world are simultaneously burning and blooming with success. What changes is the bubble you're on. If you go on YouTube you can find an equal amount of videos and people saying that the US/EU is horrible/amazing. It all depends on the person and the person's values. I'm happy here and I completely understand those that are not, same for the the people in the US.
oliwarner 2y ago
You mock it, but implementations that allow people to do things if they're not a problem isn't awful if the police are fair, reasonable people who want the best for their community. I'd sooner have that than people being a pain in the arse because they're explicitly allowed to exercise rights at the cost of society. Both concepts cut both ways.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > You mock it, but implementations that allow people to do things if they're not a problem isn't awful if the police are fair, reasonable people Seems like the smarter thing to do would be to outlaw "the problem" and not leave every single person's safety/freedom entirely up to the whims and benevolence of police.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    that doesn't work because you can't define "the problem". creating a long list of cases where photography should be allowed and where it shouldn't would require the photographed person to prove that their photo falls into the cases that are a problem. that puts to much burden on them, and makes it more difficult to protect themselves. each person has a different feeling in how they are comfortable with having their pictures published. therefore the only sane thing to do is to give each individual the right to control that. it's like copyright. by default all rights are reserved, but i can give permission to copy if i wish.

constantcrying 2y ago

>The only non-creep people these laws really impact are the photographers who actually do want to take pictures of unaware strangers for artsy reasons. That just isn't true. Imagine any kind of event where you want to take photos and publish them. Now you have to get an agreement from people on who is allowed to be photographed and who's photos you are allowed to publish, assuming that not all people agreed you now have to go through every single photo figuring out which one you are allowed to use and which one you aren't. This isn't a hypothetical, I have agreed with many, many such waivers for many different kind of events. To say that this law only affects creeps is plainly false. Even if you are just planning a wedding this will affect you.

nonagoninf 2y ago
> I have agreed with many, many such waivers for many different kind of events. Note that no one you want to invite to your wedding is going to disagree with such a waiver.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  Most likely yes, but People get drunk at weddings. And if you are organizing any kind of corporate event it might very well be the case that someone disagrees, not asking simply isn't an option. My point is that even a normal person with completely benign motives has to consider this. Contrary to what the other poster claimed it isn't a law which only "creeps" have to care about.
  - nicbou 2y ago
    I can confirm from experience. In a few German events, the organisers asked for my permission to take/share photos, and I refused. Not a single picture of me was shared. I never had to justify why, and it never felt abnormal.
nicbou 2y ago
That is correct. A good example is if you are hosting a meetup, and want to share pictures of the people who presented on stage.

mharig 2y ago

I like the solution with the beatin' up more.