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> Emotions are an axiom to convey feelings, but also our sensitivity to human emotions can be a vector for manipulation. When one gets to be a certain age one

> Emotions are an axiom to convey feelings, but also our sensitivity to human emotions can be a vector for manipulation. When one gets to be a certain age one begins to become attuned to this tendency of others' emotions to manipulate you, so you take steps to not let that happen. You're not ignoring their emotions, but you can address the underlying issue more effectively if you're not emotionally charged. It's a useful skill that more people would benefit from learning earlier in life. Perhaps AI will accelerate that particular skill development, which would be a net benefit to society.

komali2 2y ago
> When one gets to be a certain age one begins to become attuned to this tendency of others' emotions to manipulate you This is incredibly optimistic, which I love, but my own experience with my utterly deranged elder family, made insane by TV, contradicts this. Every day they're furious about some new things fox news has decided it's time to be angry about: white people being replaced (thanks for introducing them to that, tucker!), "stolen" elections, Mexicans, Muslims, the gays, teaching kids about slavery, the trans, you name it. I know nobody else in my life more emotionally manipulated on a day to day basis than them. I imagine I can't be alone in watching this happen to my family.
- jasondigitized 2y ago
  What if this technology could be applied so you can’t be manipulated? If we are already seeing people use this to simulate and train sales people to deal with tough prospects we can squint our eyes a bit and see this being used to help people identify logical fallacies and con men.
  - mrbungie 2y ago
    That's just being hopeful/optimistic. There are more incentives to use it for manipulation than to protect from manipulation. That happens with a lot of tech. Social networks are used to con people more than to educate people about con men.
- sniggers 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - komali2 2y ago
    > not wanting your race to be replaced Great replacement and white genocide are white nationalist far-right conspiracy theories. If you believe this is happening, you are the intellectual equivalent of a flat-earther. Should we pay attention to flat-earthers? Are their opinions on astronomy, rocketry, climate, and other sciences worth anyone's time? Should we give them a platform? > In the words of scholar Andrew Fergus Wilson, whereas the islamophobic Great Replacement theory can be distinguished from the parallel antisemitic white genocide conspiracy theory, "they share the same terms of reference and both are ideologically aligned with the so-called '14 words' of David Lane ["We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children"]." In 2021, the Anti-Defamation League wrote that "since many white supremacists, particularly those in the United States, blame Jews for non-white immigration to the U.S.", the Great Replacement theory has been increasingly associated with antisemitism and conflated with the white genocide conspiracy theory. Scholar Kathleen Belew has argued that the Great Replacement theory "allows an opportunism in selecting enemies", but "also follows the central motivating logic, which is to protect the thing on the inside [i.e. the preservation and birth rate of the white race], regardless of the enemy on the outside." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theo... > wanting border laws to be enforced Border laws are enforced. > and not wanting your children to be groomed into cutting off their body parts. This doesn't happen. In fact, the only form of gender-affirming surgery that any doctor will perform on under-18 year olds is male gender affirming surgery on overweight boys to remove their manboobs. > You are definitely sane and your entire family is definitely insane. You sound brave, why don't you tell us what your username means :) You're one to stand by your values, after all, aren't you?
    - sniggers 2y ago
      [flagged]
jimkleiber 2y ago
I think we often get better at detecting the underlying emotion with which the person is communicating, seeing beyond the one they are trying to communicate in an attempt to manipulate us. For example, they say that $100 is their final price but we can sense in the wavering of their voice that they might feel really worried that they will lose the deal. I don't think this will help us pick up on those cues because there are no underlying real emotions happening, maybe even feeding us many false impressions and making us worse at gauging underlying emotions.
mrbungie 2y ago
With AI you can do A/B testing (or multi-arm bandits, the technique doesn't matter) to get into someone's mind. Most manipulators end up getting bored of trying again and again with the same person. That won't happen if you are a dealing with a machine, as it can change names, techniques, contexts, tones, etc. until you give it what its operator wants. Maybe you're part of the X% who will never give in to a machine. But keep in mind that most people have no critical thinking skills nor mental fortitude.
- achierius 2y ago
  Problem is, people aren't machines either: someone who's getting bombarded with phishing requests will begin to lose it, and will be more likely to just turn off their Wi-Fi than allow an AI to run a hundred iterations of a many-armed-bandit approach on them.
  - mrbungie 2y ago
    Probably there will more nuance than that. And doomscrolling is a thing, you know.

komali2 2y ago

> When one gets to be a certain age one begins to become attuned to this tendency of others' emotions to manipulate you This is incredibly optimistic, which I love, but my own experience with my utterly deranged elder family, made insane by TV, contradicts this. Every day they're furious about some new things fox news has decided it's time to be angry about: white people being replaced (thanks for introducing them to that, tucker!), "stolen" elections, Mexicans, Muslims, the gays, teaching kids about slavery, the trans, you name it. I know nobody else in my life more emotionally manipulated on a day to day basis than them. I imagine I can't be alone in watching this happen to my family.

jasondigitized 2y ago
What if this technology could be applied so you can’t be manipulated? If we are already seeing people use this to simulate and train sales people to deal with tough prospects we can squint our eyes a bit and see this being used to help people identify logical fallacies and con men.
- mrbungie 2y ago
  That's just being hopeful/optimistic. There are more incentives to use it for manipulation than to protect from manipulation. That happens with a lot of tech. Social networks are used to con people more than to educate people about con men.
sniggers 2y ago
[flagged]
- komali2 2y ago
  > not wanting your race to be replaced Great replacement and white genocide are white nationalist far-right conspiracy theories. If you believe this is happening, you are the intellectual equivalent of a flat-earther. Should we pay attention to flat-earthers? Are their opinions on astronomy, rocketry, climate, and other sciences worth anyone's time? Should we give them a platform? > In the words of scholar Andrew Fergus Wilson, whereas the islamophobic Great Replacement theory can be distinguished from the parallel antisemitic white genocide conspiracy theory, "they share the same terms of reference and both are ideologically aligned with the so-called '14 words' of David Lane ["We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children"]." In 2021, the Anti-Defamation League wrote that "since many white supremacists, particularly those in the United States, blame Jews for non-white immigration to the U.S.", the Great Replacement theory has been increasingly associated with antisemitism and conflated with the white genocide conspiracy theory. Scholar Kathleen Belew has argued that the Great Replacement theory "allows an opportunism in selecting enemies", but "also follows the central motivating logic, which is to protect the thing on the inside [i.e. the preservation and birth rate of the white race], regardless of the enemy on the outside." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theo... > wanting border laws to be enforced Border laws are enforced. > and not wanting your children to be groomed into cutting off their body parts. This doesn't happen. In fact, the only form of gender-affirming surgery that any doctor will perform on under-18 year olds is male gender affirming surgery on overweight boys to remove their manboobs. > You are definitely sane and your entire family is definitely insane. You sound brave, why don't you tell us what your username means :) You're one to stand by your values, after all, aren't you?
  - sniggers 2y ago
    [flagged]

jimkleiber 2y ago

I think we often get better at detecting the underlying emotion with which the person is communicating, seeing beyond the one they are trying to communicate in an attempt to manipulate us. For example, they say that $100 is their final price but we can sense in the wavering of their voice that they might feel really worried that they will lose the deal. I don't think this will help us pick up on those cues because there are no underlying real emotions happening, maybe even feeding us many false impressions and making us worse at gauging underlying emotions.

mrbungie 2y ago

With AI you can do A/B testing (or multi-arm bandits, the technique doesn't matter) to get into someone's mind. Most manipulators end up getting bored of trying again and again with the same person. That won't happen if you are a dealing with a machine, as it can change names, techniques, contexts, tones, etc. until you give it what its operator wants. Maybe you're part of the X% who will never give in to a machine. But keep in mind that most people have no critical thinking skills nor mental fortitude.

achierius 2y ago
Problem is, people aren't machines either: someone who's getting bombarded with phishing requests will begin to lose it, and will be more likely to just turn off their Wi-Fi than allow an AI to run a hundred iterations of a many-armed-bandit approach on them.
- mrbungie 2y ago
  Probably there will more nuance than that. And doomscrolling is a thing, you know.