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Until I see an actual demo of this, I'm calling bullshit for what I think should be obvious reasons. Every device maker (Apple, Google, Samsung, etc.) has a hug

Until I see an actual demo of this, I'm calling bullshit for what I think should be obvious reasons. Every device maker (Apple, Google, Samsung, etc.) has a huge vested interest in ensuring that any random app on your device can't listen to your conversations without explicit permission. So if this were actually happening, it must be one of the following things: 1. There is a 0-day in iOS or Android that is allowing this to happen. This could certainly happen, but would obviously be patched as soon as it was discovered. And if this 0-day did exist I think a lot more money could be made selling this to state actors instead of as a rando marketing tool. 2. There is some app that is being nefariously marketed as something innocuous, but then is actually selling your background conversation data. Also possible, but if discovered Apple, Google, etc. would still have a vested interest in kicking them off their devices. 3. There are some shitty devices that are sold that have always-on microphones. Also a possibility but wouldn't have the reach of devices from major manufacturers. So, to Mindsift and CMG, I say "put up or shut up".

sublinear 2y ago
I agree with you if we're just talking about phones, but not all devices run Android or iOS. TVs, streaming devices, Amazon Echo , etc. are all explicitly marketing platforms with a loose enough terms of service to allow this.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  Talk in specifics, because otherwise it's still obviously bullshit: 1. Given how prevalent Alexa devices are in homes, if Amazon was recording background conversations and using it in marketing this would be huge news. Again, I'm not saying a 0-day is impossible, but there is simply no above-board way to use ambient conversations with Echo devices. 2. The vast majority of smart TVs run Android or a derivative. Again, an "always on" listening feature if it existed and was being used would be a career-making scoop for an investigative journalist. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible that there aren't some devices with shitty security that were hacked. I'm saying it's not possible to do it legitimately, and it's not possible to do it with devices that have a huge install base.
  - flerchin 2y ago
    You know how Alexa listens for a keyword to activate? There's no reason to think that the number of keywords would be limited to exactly one. Alexa can listen for "tennis bracelet" and flag a profile completely transparently to the user.
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      Except that Amazon explicitly says they don't do this, and they have extremely strong financial incentives to not lie about this: https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=23608571011#:~:text=Echo%20devices%20use%20built%2Din,and%20everything%20else%20is%20ignored https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=23608571011#:~:text=Ec.... To emphasize, I'm not saying Amazon doesn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm saying they don't do this because, from a purely financial perspective, it makes no sense for them to do it.
      - flerchin 2y ago
        What is it that you think that link is saying? I see no financial incentive for Amazon to not listen to their microphones for marketing purposes. From a certain point of view, they could even honor their word and not activate Alexa, but some other program.
        hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        > I see no financial incentive for Amazon to not listen to their microphones for marketing purposes. The financial incentive is that Amazon has detailed very clearly in that link how their listening works (or doesn't) from Alexa devices: > I’m not talking to Alexa and am having a conversation at home near my device. Is Alexa still listening and recording everything I say? > No. Alexa is a part of your life only when you ask Alexa to be. By default, Alexa begins listening after your Echo device detects the wake word, so Alexa does not listen to your personal conversations. If Amazon were lying here, it would be a multi-billion dollar class action suit, not to mention hauling all of their chief execs up before Congress, and another big push to restrict big tech. The overall point that I'm trying to make is that if your devices were listening to you without your consent (and, again, not a 0-day, etc), this would be a scandal of gargantuan proportions. Not something some shitty 3rd rate marketing company like CMG claims to be able to do with no evidence.
kstenerud 2y ago
> Every device maker (Apple, Google, Samsung, etc.) has a huge vested interest in ensuring that any random app on your device can't listen to your conversations without explicit permission. That's right - they don't want OTHER people gathering this valuable data on their devices. Why give that gold away when you can mine it yourself and make a fortune selling it to third parties? https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/samsungs-warning-our-smart-tvs-record-your-living-room-chatter/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/samsungs-warning-our-smart...

sublinear 2y ago

I agree with you if we're just talking about phones, but not all devices run Android or iOS. TVs, streaming devices, Amazon Echo , etc. are all explicitly marketing platforms with a loose enough terms of service to allow this.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
Talk in specifics, because otherwise it's still obviously bullshit: 1. Given how prevalent Alexa devices are in homes, if Amazon was recording background conversations and using it in marketing this would be huge news. Again, I'm not saying a 0-day is impossible, but there is simply no above-board way to use ambient conversations with Echo devices. 2. The vast majority of smart TVs run Android or a derivative. Again, an "always on" listening feature if it existed and was being used would be a career-making scoop for an investigative journalist. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible that there aren't some devices with shitty security that were hacked. I'm saying it's not possible to do it legitimately, and it's not possible to do it with devices that have a huge install base.
- flerchin 2y ago
  You know how Alexa listens for a keyword to activate? There's no reason to think that the number of keywords would be limited to exactly one. Alexa can listen for "tennis bracelet" and flag a profile completely transparently to the user.
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    Except that Amazon explicitly says they don't do this, and they have extremely strong financial incentives to not lie about this: https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=23608571011#:~:text=Echo%20devices%20use%20built%2Din,and%20everything%20else%20is%20ignored https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=23608571011#:~:text=Ec.... To emphasize, I'm not saying Amazon doesn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm saying they don't do this because, from a purely financial perspective, it makes no sense for them to do it.
    - flerchin 2y ago
      What is it that you think that link is saying? I see no financial incentive for Amazon to not listen to their microphones for marketing purposes. From a certain point of view, they could even honor their word and not activate Alexa, but some other program.
      - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        > I see no financial incentive for Amazon to not listen to their microphones for marketing purposes. The financial incentive is that Amazon has detailed very clearly in that link how their listening works (or doesn't) from Alexa devices: > I’m not talking to Alexa and am having a conversation at home near my device. Is Alexa still listening and recording everything I say? > No. Alexa is a part of your life only when you ask Alexa to be. By default, Alexa begins listening after your Echo device detects the wake word, so Alexa does not listen to your personal conversations. If Amazon were lying here, it would be a multi-billion dollar class action suit, not to mention hauling all of their chief execs up before Congress, and another big push to restrict big tech. The overall point that I'm trying to make is that if your devices were listening to you without your consent (and, again, not a 0-day, etc), this would be a scandal of gargantuan proportions. Not something some shitty 3rd rate marketing company like CMG claims to be able to do with no evidence.

kstenerud 2y ago

> Every device maker (Apple, Google, Samsung, etc.) has a huge vested interest in ensuring that any random app on your device can't listen to your conversations without explicit permission. That's right - they don't want OTHER people gathering this valuable data on their devices. Why give that gold away when you can mine it yourself and make a fortune selling it to third parties? https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/samsungs-warning-our-smart-tvs-record-your-living-room-chatter/ https://www.cnet.com/news/privacy/samsungs-warning-our-smart...