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I dislike getting poisoned by microplastics as much as the next guy, but a treaty like this decided by some global elite might have some unintended consequences

I dislike getting poisoned by microplastics as much as the next guy, but a treaty like this decided by some global elite might have some unintended consequences. Like they always do.. This probably wont affect the average HN, but all of our food and medicine is using plastics for a reason. It is cheap, sterile and safe. If you're poor and the price of shippings/storing your food becomes significant more expensive then you'll even more screwed. Again, probably wont affect you or me, but these things always have bad unintended consequences.

mihaic 2y ago
I think at this point the unintended consequences argument has been overused. There are significant intended consequences that implementing something like this would have. I order for this to be negative, the unintended consequences would need to be larger, and I think it's hard to see that happening. Reading the article between the lines though, it seems like global coordination is required, and the biggest challenge is getting the top 5 producers in line (China not being mentioned by name/exact number feels evasive by the authors).
tialaramex 2y ago
Plastic appears in a lot of "convenience" products which I wouldn't expect to be popular with the poorest people in the world. Plastic bottle of water? Convenient but not an efficient or reliable option. And while you can probably find a "bad unintended consequence" for everything if you try hard enough, it's usually the case that these bad effects are far smaller than the thing we set out to achieve.
- idontwantthis 2y ago
  Are you saying you assume plastic bottled water and convenience items are not popular in the poorest places in the world? That’s most definitely not the reality. South east asian cities are littered with takeout containers and bottles.
  - martinbaun 2y ago
    I haven't been to asia, but I could imagine that plastic bottled water isn't a convenience good, but a way to avoid getting sick from polluted tap water.
    - stevenwoo 2y ago
      My limited experience is in Southeast Asia and Mexico tourists used bottled water and natives do not, at the time I went ages ago it was the recommended behavior but the rivers in Southeast Asia had lots of what appeared to be single use containers, there was simply no larger cultural impetus to dispose of stuff properly. OTOH riding my bike around SF Bay Area there is always discarded fast food wrappers and packaging along paved roads, a few of us can’t be bothered even in one of wealthiest parts of USA.
      - idontwantthis 2y ago
        You have filtered water delivered to your home or you drink bottled water. If you are away from your home and you need water, you buy a bottle. Everyone only drinks bottle water in Cambodia/Vietnam/Thailand unless you are so desperately poor that you have no choice but to get sick. Exceptions abound, I'm sure, but it is a necessity not a luxury.
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        Boiling the water will kill any pathogens, but it doesn't do anything for chemical or disolved contaminants. If you're so poor you don't have a pot to boil water in you are desperate indeed.
- _mlbt 2y ago
  Plastic bottles of water are one of the most important supplies you can provide during and after a major disaster. There are so many situations that disrupt access to clean, safe, potable drinking water and pallets of bottled water are the simplest and fastest way to help people in need.
  - martinbaun 2y ago
    Didn't even think about this and you're absolutely right. And where do the worst disasters happen? The countries where the infrastructure is not good enough.
- martinbaun 2y ago
  Perfect example. Bottled water might be a luxury good for you, but in most places in the world you have polluted tap water you can die from or bottled water. So if you were in charge of this, you might have just killed a few million people from cholera. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/cholera https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/cholera I can't stress this enough, but there are so many unintended consequences.
  - yareal 2y ago
    That's a false dichotomy though. Individual single use plastic bottles and cholera are not the only two options. Paper packaging, metal packaging, glass packaging, bulk packaging, improved infrastructure, filters, etc. I'm sure there are other reasonable options beyond single use plastic bottles.
    - martinbaun 2y ago
      Well, if you're living in "Extreme Poverty", then you'll be earning around $2 a day. If you're earning $2 a day, then paying $.2 more for bottled water in paper is probably going to be detrimental for you. Around 1 billion people live in extreme poverty. So yes, there's alternatives for you and me, but not for a billion people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty
      - yareal 2y ago
        I'm aware. A glass bottle has a unit cost increase of approximately a penny per bottle (per CleanMetrics). But the bottle itself can be reused and recycled. Also, this assumes it's not in our best interest to subsidize this penny per bottle cost for our own health. Plastic trash ends up in our hydrocycle no matter where it is used. Also, reusable plastic aren't the problem either. A large, centrally fillable 5 gallon container is not likely to be used once and discarded. Are you really asserting that individual 12-40oz single use bottles of water are the best system we can imagine and what a million people use for daily water?
    - 2y ago
- keybored 2y ago
  Having access to drinkable tap water[1] is an amazing privilege. Some places either don’t have access to enough water or don’t have the infrastructure. [1] Bonus if it also tastes good!
- reaperman 2y ago
  I'd imagine a lot of these could be replaced with certain varieties of PLA that are sourced from bio-feedstocks and also relatively biologically degradable. Some PLA isn't very biodegradable, and certainly many would contain problematic plasticizers and other harmful chemicals. Additionally, PLA doesn't have the mechanical stiffness and toughness needed for many applications - but I think if the market for that expanded greatly, research investment would create new varieties of biodegradable PLA which could function as a drop-in replacement for a larger portion of other plastics.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  Plastic is how extremely poor people get things. If you want basic necessities for living plastic is a great option. If you are extremely poor, what do you eat from? What do you store things in? What do you wear? The answer is obviously plastic.

mihaic 2y ago

I think at this point the unintended consequences argument has been overused. There are significant intended consequences that implementing something like this would have. I order for this to be negative, the unintended consequences would need to be larger, and I think it's hard to see that happening. Reading the article between the lines though, it seems like global coordination is required, and the biggest challenge is getting the top 5 producers in line (China not being mentioned by name/exact number feels evasive by the authors).

tialaramex 2y ago

Plastic appears in a lot of "convenience" products which I wouldn't expect to be popular with the poorest people in the world. Plastic bottle of water? Convenient but not an efficient or reliable option. And while you can probably find a "bad unintended consequence" for everything if you try hard enough, it's usually the case that these bad effects are far smaller than the thing we set out to achieve.

idontwantthis 2y ago
Are you saying you assume plastic bottled water and convenience items are not popular in the poorest places in the world? That’s most definitely not the reality. South east asian cities are littered with takeout containers and bottles.
- martinbaun 2y ago
  I haven't been to asia, but I could imagine that plastic bottled water isn't a convenience good, but a way to avoid getting sick from polluted tap water.
  - stevenwoo 2y ago
    My limited experience is in Southeast Asia and Mexico tourists used bottled water and natives do not, at the time I went ages ago it was the recommended behavior but the rivers in Southeast Asia had lots of what appeared to be single use containers, there was simply no larger cultural impetus to dispose of stuff properly. OTOH riding my bike around SF Bay Area there is always discarded fast food wrappers and packaging along paved roads, a few of us can’t be bothered even in one of wealthiest parts of USA.
    - idontwantthis 2y ago
      You have filtered water delivered to your home or you drink bottled water. If you are away from your home and you need water, you buy a bottle. Everyone only drinks bottle water in Cambodia/Vietnam/Thailand unless you are so desperately poor that you have no choice but to get sick. Exceptions abound, I'm sure, but it is a necessity not a luxury.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        Boiling the water will kill any pathogens, but it doesn't do anything for chemical or disolved contaminants. If you're so poor you don't have a pot to boil water in you are desperate indeed.
_mlbt 2y ago
Plastic bottles of water are one of the most important supplies you can provide during and after a major disaster. There are so many situations that disrupt access to clean, safe, potable drinking water and pallets of bottled water are the simplest and fastest way to help people in need.
- martinbaun 2y ago
  Didn't even think about this and you're absolutely right. And where do the worst disasters happen? The countries where the infrastructure is not good enough.
martinbaun 2y ago
Perfect example. Bottled water might be a luxury good for you, but in most places in the world you have polluted tap water you can die from or bottled water. So if you were in charge of this, you might have just killed a few million people from cholera. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/cholera https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/cholera I can't stress this enough, but there are so many unintended consequences.
- yareal 2y ago
  That's a false dichotomy though. Individual single use plastic bottles and cholera are not the only two options. Paper packaging, metal packaging, glass packaging, bulk packaging, improved infrastructure, filters, etc. I'm sure there are other reasonable options beyond single use plastic bottles.
  - martinbaun 2y ago
    Well, if you're living in "Extreme Poverty", then you'll be earning around $2 a day. If you're earning $2 a day, then paying $.2 more for bottled water in paper is probably going to be detrimental for you. Around 1 billion people live in extreme poverty. So yes, there's alternatives for you and me, but not for a billion people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty
    - yareal 2y ago
      I'm aware. A glass bottle has a unit cost increase of approximately a penny per bottle (per CleanMetrics). But the bottle itself can be reused and recycled. Also, this assumes it's not in our best interest to subsidize this penny per bottle cost for our own health. Plastic trash ends up in our hydrocycle no matter where it is used. Also, reusable plastic aren't the problem either. A large, centrally fillable 5 gallon container is not likely to be used once and discarded. Are you really asserting that individual 12-40oz single use bottles of water are the best system we can imagine and what a million people use for daily water?
  - 2y ago
keybored 2y ago
Having access to drinkable tap water[1] is an amazing privilege. Some places either don’t have access to enough water or don’t have the infrastructure. [1] Bonus if it also tastes good!
reaperman 2y ago
I'd imagine a lot of these could be replaced with certain varieties of PLA that are sourced from bio-feedstocks and also relatively biologically degradable. Some PLA isn't very biodegradable, and certainly many would contain problematic plasticizers and other harmful chemicals. Additionally, PLA doesn't have the mechanical stiffness and toughness needed for many applications - but I think if the market for that expanded greatly, research investment would create new varieties of biodegradable PLA which could function as a drop-in replacement for a larger portion of other plastics.
constantcrying 2y ago
Plastic is how extremely poor people get things. If you want basic necessities for living plastic is a great option. If you are extremely poor, what do you eat from? What do you store things in? What do you wear? The answer is obviously plastic.