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LPCAMM is the best thing to happen in the laptop space since Framework. Forget Apple's ridiculously expensive soldered storage and memory; LPCAMM is a step in t

LPCAMM is the best thing to happen in the laptop space since Framework. Forget Apple's ridiculously expensive soldered storage and memory; LPCAMM is a step in the right direction.

servus45678981 2y ago
[flagged]
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  Apple charges you 3x or 4x what RAM is worth for upgrades.
  - pmontra 2y ago
    Not only Apple. I bought a HP laptop 10 years ago. The 16 GB version cost at least 100 Euro more than the 8 GB version plus a 16 GB RAM module from another vendor (I can't remember which one, but one of the usual companies.)
    - jsheard 2y ago
      Yeah, but with other vendors you still have plenty of options that you can upgrade yourself. That's what the OP is about, this new standard allows for fast, upgradable memory in very thin form factors that previously might have needed to compromise on upgradability.
  - jsheard 2y ago
    Indeed, Apple currently charges $400 to add an extra 32GB of LPDDR5 to a machine.
  - dist-epoch 2y ago
    Which is exactly how much they should charge if you want to prove that you are successful and don't care about money. Apple is a status symbol, being priced at cost would destroy their brand.
- pixl97 2y ago
  What kind of first world insane fanboyism is this? Cellphones have got us deep in the 'use once and throw away' world of electronics, but the idea of just throwing away things like laptops once the software world has bloated itself once again is insane to me. I've rescued tons of computers by tossing more memory/new SSD in them keeping them from adding to the growing pile of e-waste, and allowing someone use of them that otherwise would have been unable to afford them.
- LorenDB 2y ago
  What if you can't afford a top-specced model at the time of purchase? What if your memory chips fail after your warranty expired? I pulled up Apple's pricing to check the exact numbers. On the 14" Macbook Pro, upgrading from 8 to 16 GB of RAM costs $200. I could get a 64 GB DDR5 SODIMM kit for only a little more from Newegg[0]. Again: upgrading the MBP from 512 GB of storage to 1 TB costs $200; meanwhile, even a high-end 2 TB NVMe SSD from Samsung costs less than $200 on Newegg[1]. There's no point in sacrificing repairability and upgradeability in that way, especially in cases where it doesn't make a huge difference in performance (from what I can find, Apple's storage speeds aren't faster than non-soldered storage, and LPCAMM's gimmick is that it brings soldered speeds in a removable package). [0]: https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-64gb-262-pin-ddr5-so-dimm/p/N82E16820374492 https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-64gb-262-pin-ddr5-so-dimm/p/N... [1]: https://www.newegg.com/samsung-2tb-980-pro/p/N82E16820147796 https://www.newegg.com/samsung-2tb-980-pro/p/N82E16820147796
  - dist-epoch 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - LorenDB 2y ago
      I'm sorry, but if you have to resort to labeling reasonably-priced non-Apple products as "what poor people buy", I can't accept your arguments. Not everybody can afford to spend $3k+ on a top-specced MacBook even if they wanted a MacBook. I would much rather take my personal route of buying a nice $1400 Thinkpad and then upgrading the storage to 2 TB later on for $100 over Black Friday. Sure, it's still pricey, but I get great specs for less than half the price of a MacBook.
      - throwaway5959 2y ago
        I’m not letting a Lenovo product on my home network, even if I was given one for free.
        TheAmazingRace 2y ago
Bud 2y ago
Soldered? It's not soldered. It's part of the actual SoC. Could we please update our research to more recent than 20 years ago?
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  The switch to ARM Macs only happened 3.5 years ago, plenty of Intel models still in service that would benefit from a RAM upgrade if it weren’t soldered
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    The ram is soldered into an Intel Mac for the exact same reason that it's soldered into an ARM Mac.
    - arghwhat 2y ago
      To make upgrades incredibly expensive, allowing them to have the same product generate revenue as both an expensive mid-range machine as well as a ridiculously expensive "professional" machine. Why make different products when you can sell the same product at different prices? In case of intel macs, the soldered RAM should have made the device and RAM options even cheaper, as the BOM is simpler. The only real argument against soldered RAM was DDR5 in SODIMM being bad - which LPCAMM2 fixes. If they didn't use it specifically to price gouge, the soldered RAM wouldn't have been a problem. 64GB of RAM costs practically nothing at market prices, so they could honestly have had a single SKU with max RAM without notable price change over entry level - heck, maybe the BOM reduction would even sponsor it. ... But then they'd lose their mechanism to drain companies with deep pockets for necessary upgrades. Being sensible and fair is not profitable.
- jsheard 2y ago
  It's soldered to the package. The actual RAM components are the very same discrete BGA ICs that would normally be soldered to a motherboard, but they've soldered them right next to the SoC die instead for tighter signaling. https://i.imgur.com/Y3PLp33.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/Y3PLp33.jpeg Anyway results are what matters, and the module in the OP has bandwidth figures half way between the M3 and M3 Pro while retaining upgradability.
baybal2 2y ago
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pavi2410 2y ago
[flagged]
pavi2410 2y ago
[flagged]
pavi2410 2y ago
[flagged]
PedroBatista 2y ago
That was true when they had Intel CPU's and soldered the RAM chips on the board. Now they have the memory chips "inside" the "CPU", aka: system in a package. Big Tim is way ahead of the game when it comes to ruthless product targeting and segmentation.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Apple's ridiculously expensive fast & wide on-package memory is a big reason why the M series chips are so fast. Expect AMD & Intel to adopt a similar strategy in their high end chips soon.
- jsheard 2y ago
  Intel is already there at the ultra-high-end, the Xeon Max is a hybrid with 64GB of HBM2 on-package and an external DDR5 bus supporting up to 4TB of socketed RAM. The HBM2 can be configured to work as L4 cache for the DDR5, or it can boot without any DDR5 at all and run entirely from the HBM2. https://www.servethehome.com/intel-xeon-max-9480-deep-dive-intel-has-64gb-hbm2e-onboard-like-a-gpu-or-ai-accelerator/ https://www.servethehome.com/intel-xeon-max-9480-deep-dive-i...
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    MI300X also has on-package RAM, but that's even further from a laptop chip than Xeon Max. :)
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    Intel's Lakefield also comes to mind, pretty underrated chip imo. The first x86 big/small heterogenous chip, using Intel's Foveros to stack memory, CPU, and platform chip into one package. It made for a very simple design that just needed power. LPDDR4X-4266 doesn't crazy fast but in 2020 it was pretty swift. https://www.anandtech.com/show/15877/intel-hybrid-cpu-lakefield-all-you-need-to-know/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/15877/intel-hybrid-cpu-lakefi... Alas the 1+4 Skylake+atom were all pretty meh chips & Intel hasn't tried again. Conceptually I really.liked it, and it was doing great against the Qualcomm 8cx competitor for the tablets/2-in-1s it was in, but people wanted more.
  - bastard_op 2y ago
    I remember seeing this from STH as well, and my first thought was "I want one of these in my laptop!" It'd be perfect then to max ram in a laptop with 2 sodimm slots, or one of these 64gb lpcamm's. Ideally with a thinner laptop in mind, but probably not with the heatsink for THAT massive xeon. I really hope the hbm memory on-die trickles down into pro-sumer processor chips eventually too.

LPCAMM is the best thing to happen in the laptop space since Framework. Forget Apple's ridiculously expensive soldered storage and memory; LPCAMM is a step in the right direction.

servus45678981 2y ago

[flagged]

PaulHoule 2y ago
Apple charges you 3x or 4x what RAM is worth for upgrades.
- pmontra 2y ago
  Not only Apple. I bought a HP laptop 10 years ago. The 16 GB version cost at least 100 Euro more than the 8 GB version plus a 16 GB RAM module from another vendor (I can't remember which one, but one of the usual companies.)
  - jsheard 2y ago
    Yeah, but with other vendors you still have plenty of options that you can upgrade yourself. That's what the OP is about, this new standard allows for fast, upgradable memory in very thin form factors that previously might have needed to compromise on upgradability.
- jsheard 2y ago
  Indeed, Apple currently charges $400 to add an extra 32GB of LPDDR5 to a machine.
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  Which is exactly how much they should charge if you want to prove that you are successful and don't care about money. Apple is a status symbol, being priced at cost would destroy their brand.
pixl97 2y ago
What kind of first world insane fanboyism is this? Cellphones have got us deep in the 'use once and throw away' world of electronics, but the idea of just throwing away things like laptops once the software world has bloated itself once again is insane to me. I've rescued tons of computers by tossing more memory/new SSD in them keeping them from adding to the growing pile of e-waste, and allowing someone use of them that otherwise would have been unable to afford them.
LorenDB 2y ago
What if you can't afford a top-specced model at the time of purchase? What if your memory chips fail after your warranty expired? I pulled up Apple's pricing to check the exact numbers. On the 14" Macbook Pro, upgrading from 8 to 16 GB of RAM costs $200. I could get a 64 GB DDR5 SODIMM kit for only a little more from Newegg[0]. Again: upgrading the MBP from 512 GB of storage to 1 TB costs $200; meanwhile, even a high-end 2 TB NVMe SSD from Samsung costs less than $200 on Newegg[1]. There's no point in sacrificing repairability and upgradeability in that way, especially in cases where it doesn't make a huge difference in performance (from what I can find, Apple's storage speeds aren't faster than non-soldered storage, and LPCAMM's gimmick is that it brings soldered speeds in a removable package). [0]: https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-64gb-262-pin-ddr5-so-dimm/p/N82E16820374492 https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-64gb-262-pin-ddr5-so-dimm/p/N... [1]: https://www.newegg.com/samsung-2tb-980-pro/p/N82E16820147796 https://www.newegg.com/samsung-2tb-980-pro/p/N82E16820147796
- dist-epoch 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - LorenDB 2y ago
    I'm sorry, but if you have to resort to labeling reasonably-priced non-Apple products as "what poor people buy", I can't accept your arguments. Not everybody can afford to spend $3k+ on a top-specced MacBook even if they wanted a MacBook. I would much rather take my personal route of buying a nice $1400 Thinkpad and then upgrading the storage to 2 TB later on for $100 over Black Friday. Sure, it's still pricey, but I get great specs for less than half the price of a MacBook.
    - throwaway5959 2y ago
      I’m not letting a Lenovo product on my home network, even if I was given one for free.
      - TheAmazingRace 2y ago

Bud 2y ago

Soldered? It's not soldered. It's part of the actual SoC. Could we please update our research to more recent than 20 years ago?

wlesieutre 2y ago
The switch to ARM Macs only happened 3.5 years ago, plenty of Intel models still in service that would benefit from a RAM upgrade if it weren’t soldered
- jeffbee 2y ago
  The ram is soldered into an Intel Mac for the exact same reason that it's soldered into an ARM Mac.
  - arghwhat 2y ago
    To make upgrades incredibly expensive, allowing them to have the same product generate revenue as both an expensive mid-range machine as well as a ridiculously expensive "professional" machine. Why make different products when you can sell the same product at different prices? In case of intel macs, the soldered RAM should have made the device and RAM options even cheaper, as the BOM is simpler. The only real argument against soldered RAM was DDR5 in SODIMM being bad - which LPCAMM2 fixes. If they didn't use it specifically to price gouge, the soldered RAM wouldn't have been a problem. 64GB of RAM costs practically nothing at market prices, so they could honestly have had a single SKU with max RAM without notable price change over entry level - heck, maybe the BOM reduction would even sponsor it. ... But then they'd lose their mechanism to drain companies with deep pockets for necessary upgrades. Being sensible and fair is not profitable.
jsheard 2y ago
It's soldered to the package. The actual RAM components are the very same discrete BGA ICs that would normally be soldered to a motherboard, but they've soldered them right next to the SoC die instead for tighter signaling. https://i.imgur.com/Y3PLp33.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/Y3PLp33.jpeg Anyway results are what matters, and the module in the OP has bandwidth figures half way between the M3 and M3 Pro while retaining upgradability.

baybal2 2y ago

[dead]

pavi2410 2y ago

[flagged]

pavi2410 2y ago

[flagged]

pavi2410 2y ago

[flagged]

PedroBatista 2y ago

That was true when they had Intel CPU's and soldered the RAM chips on the board. Now they have the memory chips "inside" the "CPU", aka: system in a package. Big Tim is way ahead of the game when it comes to ruthless product targeting and segmentation.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Apple's ridiculously expensive fast & wide on-package memory is a big reason why the M series chips are so fast. Expect AMD & Intel to adopt a similar strategy in their high end chips soon.

jsheard 2y ago
Intel is already there at the ultra-high-end, the Xeon Max is a hybrid with 64GB of HBM2 on-package and an external DDR5 bus supporting up to 4TB of socketed RAM. The HBM2 can be configured to work as L4 cache for the DDR5, or it can boot without any DDR5 at all and run entirely from the HBM2. https://www.servethehome.com/intel-xeon-max-9480-deep-dive-intel-has-64gb-hbm2e-onboard-like-a-gpu-or-ai-accelerator/ https://www.servethehome.com/intel-xeon-max-9480-deep-dive-i...
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  MI300X also has on-package RAM, but that's even further from a laptop chip than Xeon Max. :)
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Intel's Lakefield also comes to mind, pretty underrated chip imo. The first x86 big/small heterogenous chip, using Intel's Foveros to stack memory, CPU, and platform chip into one package. It made for a very simple design that just needed power. LPDDR4X-4266 doesn't crazy fast but in 2020 it was pretty swift. https://www.anandtech.com/show/15877/intel-hybrid-cpu-lakefield-all-you-need-to-know/3 https://www.anandtech.com/show/15877/intel-hybrid-cpu-lakefi... Alas the 1+4 Skylake+atom were all pretty meh chips & Intel hasn't tried again. Conceptually I really.liked it, and it was doing great against the Qualcomm 8cx competitor for the tablets/2-in-1s it was in, but people wanted more.
- bastard_op 2y ago
  I remember seeing this from STH as well, and my first thought was "I want one of these in my laptop!" It'd be perfect then to max ram in a laptop with 2 sodimm slots, or one of these 64gb lpcamm's. Ideally with a thinner laptop in mind, but probably not with the heatsink for THAT massive xeon. I really hope the hbm memory on-die trickles down into pro-sumer processor chips eventually too.