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The selfish/selfless thing has never made much sense to me apropos of children; they seem to be about fulfilling some personal want. Is the woman who has 3 kids

The selfish/selfless thing has never made much sense to me apropos of children; they seem to be about fulfilling some personal want. Is the woman who has 3 kids from 3 different dads being selfless? I've never heard anyone say they want to have kids to go onto work menial jobs and pay taxes; frankly that's my every day and I don't have much interest in inflicting it on some poor, unsuspecting child.

rayiner 2y ago
For society to continue existing, which let’s say is axiomatically desirable, on average each person must reproduce themselves. Those kids, moreover, must be raised and socialized into the rules of the society, which requires labor. By having kids, therefore, you’re performing a function that enables society to keep existing. It’s a contribution to society in kind, similar to how taxes are a contribution to society in money. Someone who doesn’t play their part in that is selfish, in the same way as someone who doesn’t pay taxes or perform other obligations that enable society to exist.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  If a society structures itself in such a way that no one wants (or is able) to continue it, then it will die and others may arise in its place. For myself I don't believe I have the wherewithal for it regardless of my view on the matter of selfishness. >The recent proliferation of studies examining cross-national variation in the association between parenthood and happiness reveal accumulating evidence of lower levels of happiness among parents than nonparents in most advanced industrialized societies. Conceptualizing parenting as a stressor buffered by institutional support, we hypothesize that parental status differences in happiness are smaller in countries providing more resources and support to families. Our analyses of the European Social Surveys (ESS) and International Social Survey Programme (ISSP) reveal considerable variation in the parenthood gap in happiness across countries, with the U.S. showing the largest disadvantage of parenthood. [0] [0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28082749/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28082749/
  - rayiner 2y ago
    I agree with your first point. Societies that socialize people to prioritize individual “happiness” over fulfilling social obligations will die out and better societies will take their place.
    - silverquiet 2y ago
      I don't think it's about happiness (scare quotes or otherwise), I think it's about avoiding ruin. In a society where you have to run as fast as you can to keep up, children will slow you down and you might end up consumed by the predators that surround you. That's why the line from the abstract "Conceptualizing parenting as a stressor buffered by institutional support" rings so true to me. The response to the above tends to be something like, it's not so bad, kids don't really need that much anyway. Which always leaves me with the question - how much money do you make? Could it be expressed as "several times the median US household income"?
      - rayiner 2y ago
        Sure—but that just means I get to indulge my kids with private school and trips to Japan. By contrast our neighbors are probably right around the median, and had kids in their 20s like we did, and their kids are just as happy. (At the end of the day—both sets of kids value the fact that the respective grandparents live nearby more than anything money can buy.) The point you’re trying to make is contradicted by the demographics of who is having kids. My friends from law school are the ones who disproportionally aren’t having kids. Meanwhile my wife’s step mom’s rural Idaho family is bursting at the seams with kids.
        silverquiet 2y ago
        It doesn't actually seem contradictory; not that I know much about law (hell, I think I lost my belief in it sometime in the last decade or so), but my impression is that it's a fairly all-consuming profession between school and a very grinding early career and very competitive; taking time out to raise children could be very costly. And I bet a lot are coupled with other lawyers so there's not much likelihood of one being a homemaker. For those without good career prospects, ruin is not such a big deal. I looked it up, and no surprise that medicaid pays for a huge share of births in rural Idaho; if anything, 48% is lower than I'd expect. > Medicaid coverage is even higher for births in rural Idaho. For instance, 48% of births in Lemhi County involved mothers covered by Medicaid. [0] [0]https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2023/11/28/idahos-infant-mother-death-rate-is-rising-new-report-finds/ https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2023/11/28/idahos-infant...

rayiner 2y ago

For society to continue existing, which let’s say is axiomatically desirable, on average each person must reproduce themselves. Those kids, moreover, must be raised and socialized into the rules of the society, which requires labor. By having kids, therefore, you’re performing a function that enables society to keep existing. It’s a contribution to society in kind, similar to how taxes are a contribution to society in money. Someone who doesn’t play their part in that is selfish, in the same way as someone who doesn’t pay taxes or perform other obligations that enable society to exist.

silverquiet 2y ago
If a society structures itself in such a way that no one wants (or is able) to continue it, then it will die and others may arise in its place. For myself I don't believe I have the wherewithal for it regardless of my view on the matter of selfishness. >The recent proliferation of studies examining cross-national variation in the association between parenthood and happiness reveal accumulating evidence of lower levels of happiness among parents than nonparents in most advanced industrialized societies. Conceptualizing parenting as a stressor buffered by institutional support, we hypothesize that parental status differences in happiness are smaller in countries providing more resources and support to families. Our analyses of the European Social Surveys (ESS) and International Social Survey Programme (ISSP) reveal considerable variation in the parenthood gap in happiness across countries, with the U.S. showing the largest disadvantage of parenthood. [0] [0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28082749/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28082749/
- rayiner 2y ago
  I agree with your first point. Societies that socialize people to prioritize individual “happiness” over fulfilling social obligations will die out and better societies will take their place.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    I don't think it's about happiness (scare quotes or otherwise), I think it's about avoiding ruin. In a society where you have to run as fast as you can to keep up, children will slow you down and you might end up consumed by the predators that surround you. That's why the line from the abstract "Conceptualizing parenting as a stressor buffered by institutional support" rings so true to me. The response to the above tends to be something like, it's not so bad, kids don't really need that much anyway. Which always leaves me with the question - how much money do you make? Could it be expressed as "several times the median US household income"?
    - rayiner 2y ago
      Sure—but that just means I get to indulge my kids with private school and trips to Japan. By contrast our neighbors are probably right around the median, and had kids in their 20s like we did, and their kids are just as happy. (At the end of the day—both sets of kids value the fact that the respective grandparents live nearby more than anything money can buy.) The point you’re trying to make is contradicted by the demographics of who is having kids. My friends from law school are the ones who disproportionally aren’t having kids. Meanwhile my wife’s step mom’s rural Idaho family is bursting at the seams with kids.
      - silverquiet 2y ago
        It doesn't actually seem contradictory; not that I know much about law (hell, I think I lost my belief in it sometime in the last decade or so), but my impression is that it's a fairly all-consuming profession between school and a very grinding early career and very competitive; taking time out to raise children could be very costly. And I bet a lot are coupled with other lawyers so there's not much likelihood of one being a homemaker. For those without good career prospects, ruin is not such a big deal. I looked it up, and no surprise that medicaid pays for a huge share of births in rural Idaho; if anything, 48% is lower than I'd expect. > Medicaid coverage is even higher for births in rural Idaho. For instance, 48% of births in Lemhi County involved mothers covered by Medicaid. [0] [0]https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2023/11/28/idahos-infant-mother-death-rate-is-rising-new-report-finds/ https://washingtonstatestandard.com/2023/11/28/idahos-infant...