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Say what you want about America, but anti-government activists are not kept under house arrest. China does not have the moral high-ground to use this kind of pl

Say what you want about America, but anti-government activists are not kept under house arrest. China does not have the moral high-ground to use this kind of ploy.

jonathanyc 14y ago
Good god, are you living under a rock? Read up on your recent US history - people are being imprisoned overseas, American citizens are being assassinated by order of the President...
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
corin_ 14y ago
My (possibly wrong) assumption is that the primary purpose of this release is to target Chinese people, not to get the rest of the world thinking "holy shit, America sucks". And so they don't really need the high ground for this to work, they just need to be able to control local propaganda and press.. That said, just because they don't have the moral high ground, it doesn't mean the points they raise aren't perfectly valid (n.b. I haven't actually read their release yet, so I'm not going the opposite direction and saying believe everything they said).
amurmann 14y ago
With the same logic the US human rights report should not contain anything about other countries that respect human rights better than th US. That would lead to the exclusion of most other western countries from the report. Everyone should be allowed to point out everyone else's human rights violations. Sadly most western countries are not gonna confront the US on this because they don't want to harm relations.
antris 14y ago
Bradley Manning.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  I don't think Manning could be called the typical activist. His case is a rather extreme example of the kind of discipline military organizations apply to themselves. Having said that, I'm too uncomfortable with his situation, but I would be that for every Manning there are a hundred Chinese who already got shot.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Violated laws against espionage and is being given due process. If you're going to say Bradley Manning you might as well say Julius Rosenberg or Jonathan Pollard.
  - antris 14y ago
    Using laws against espionage to convict Manning assumes that he is a spy without any evidence. The evidence is actually quite the contrary: spies do not release information to the public, they give it to the enemy in secret. His isolation is also overkill. There are more humane ways to make sure that he does not escape the judicial process. But this isn't about what's right; this is about finding ways to punish him without due process.
    - philwelch 14y ago
      > The evidence is actually quite the contrary: spies do not release information to the public, they give it to the enemy in secret. I trust you've read the charges against Bradley Manning and can cite where the UCMJ or the US Code sections listed say that releasing classified information to the public does not constitute espionage or is otherwise not an offense? Anyway, yes, innocent until proven guilty. Nonetheless, there's little dispute about the facts of the case. And there's no indication that his treatment in any way exceeds or violates the regulations around the ordinary treatment of the accused. Unless you think it's unusual for accused spies to be held in maximum security?
      - antris 14y ago
        >I trust you've read the charges against Bradley Manning and can cite where the UCMJ or the US Code sections listed say that releasing classified information to the public does not constitute espionage or is otherwise not an offense? Manning was charged under the Espionage Act of 1917. Manning clearly isn't a spy, so he shouldn't be charged based on those laws. Non-espionage activity shouldn't be judged based on espionage laws. The military law is constructed to be purposefully vague (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_article_(military_law) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_article_(military_law)). Anyone can be charged based on anything, so appealing to the technicality that Manning's case is not explicitly excluded does not matter. Disobeying in general is already illegal.
EternalLight 14y ago
Nope, just random Muslims (Guantanamo)... Us is a large net positive force in the world, but also the largest one on hypocrisy. Unless you include talking without doing anything of cause.
batista 14y ago
>Say what you want about America, but anti-government activists are not kept under house arrest. China does not have the moral high-ground to use this kind of ploy. Yes, they are murdered, like Malcom X and Dr. King. Or persecuted by senator McCarthy. Or jailed, like the Chicago 7 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven ). Or killed like Ruben Salazar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub%C3%A9n_Salazar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub%C3%A9n_Salazar ) Or shot, like in Wounded Knee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident ). Or, burned like in Waco, TX ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege ). Or, things that never go out of style, they are beaten to a pulp, entrapped and jailed, etc like tons of African American and/or labour activists. Some more unfortunate are held in overseas prisons, without due process or any kind of proof, to be proven innocent 5-6 years later, you know those prisons Obama was to close...

Say what you want about America, but anti-government activists are not kept under house arrest. China does not have the moral high-ground to use this kind of ploy.

jonathanyc 14y ago

Good god, are you living under a rock? Read up on your recent US history - people are being imprisoned overseas, American citizens are being assassinated by order of the President...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

corin_ 14y ago

My (possibly wrong) assumption is that the primary purpose of this release is to target Chinese people, not to get the rest of the world thinking "holy shit, America sucks". And so they don't really need the high ground for this to work, they just need to be able to control local propaganda and press.. That said, just because they don't have the moral high ground, it doesn't mean the points they raise aren't perfectly valid (n.b. I haven't actually read their release yet, so I'm not going the opposite direction and saying believe everything they said).

amurmann 14y ago

With the same logic the US human rights report should not contain anything about other countries that respect human rights better than th US. That would lead to the exclusion of most other western countries from the report. Everyone should be allowed to point out everyone else's human rights violations. Sadly most western countries are not gonna confront the US on this because they don't want to harm relations.

antris 14y ago

Bradley Manning.

rbanffy 14y ago
I don't think Manning could be called the typical activist. His case is a rather extreme example of the kind of discipline military organizations apply to themselves. Having said that, I'm too uncomfortable with his situation, but I would be that for every Manning there are a hundred Chinese who already got shot.
philwelch 14y ago
Violated laws against espionage and is being given due process. If you're going to say Bradley Manning you might as well say Julius Rosenberg or Jonathan Pollard.
- antris 14y ago
  Using laws against espionage to convict Manning assumes that he is a spy without any evidence. The evidence is actually quite the contrary: spies do not release information to the public, they give it to the enemy in secret. His isolation is also overkill. There are more humane ways to make sure that he does not escape the judicial process. But this isn't about what's right; this is about finding ways to punish him without due process.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    > The evidence is actually quite the contrary: spies do not release information to the public, they give it to the enemy in secret. I trust you've read the charges against Bradley Manning and can cite where the UCMJ or the US Code sections listed say that releasing classified information to the public does not constitute espionage or is otherwise not an offense? Anyway, yes, innocent until proven guilty. Nonetheless, there's little dispute about the facts of the case. And there's no indication that his treatment in any way exceeds or violates the regulations around the ordinary treatment of the accused. Unless you think it's unusual for accused spies to be held in maximum security?
    - antris 14y ago
      >I trust you've read the charges against Bradley Manning and can cite where the UCMJ or the US Code sections listed say that releasing classified information to the public does not constitute espionage or is otherwise not an offense? Manning was charged under the Espionage Act of 1917. Manning clearly isn't a spy, so he shouldn't be charged based on those laws. Non-espionage activity shouldn't be judged based on espionage laws. The military law is constructed to be purposefully vague (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_article_(military_law) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_article_(military_law)). Anyone can be charged based on anything, so appealing to the technicality that Manning's case is not explicitly excluded does not matter. Disobeying in general is already illegal.

EternalLight 14y ago

Nope, just random Muslims (Guantanamo)... Us is a large net positive force in the world, but also the largest one on hypocrisy. Unless you include talking without doing anything of cause.

batista 14y ago

>Say what you want about America, but anti-government activists are not kept under house arrest. China does not have the moral high-ground to use this kind of ploy. Yes, they are murdered, like Malcom X and Dr. King. Or persecuted by senator McCarthy. Or jailed, like the Chicago 7 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Seven ). Or killed like Ruben Salazar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub%C3%A9n_Salazar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub%C3%A9n_Salazar ) Or shot, like in Wounded Knee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_incident ). Or, burned like in Waco, TX ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege ). Or, things that never go out of style, they are beaten to a pulp, entrapped and jailed, etc like tons of African American and/or labour activists. Some more unfortunate are held in overseas prisons, without due process or any kind of proof, to be proven innocent 5-6 years later, you know those prisons Obama was to close...