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I really don't think that that is the real reason. No traffic sign in Australia has punctation. It's for clarity when reading, nothing else. Safety first.

viraptor 2y ago
(citation needed). What safety/clarity is given by removing apostrophes from names? Especially in the country already using lots of indigenous names forced into almost-English pronunciation?
eviks 2y ago
What is the mechanism behind how a different practice in Australia explains the officials lying about the real reason here?
- emmelaich 2y ago
  Gell-Mann amnesia. I don't think they lying; they are probably being selectively quoted and the article written to be as click-baity as possible.
  - eviks 2y ago
    Quoting is visible after you've clicked, so doesn't bait. Not sure how amnesia would explain anything either. > I don't think they lying You can't have it both ways, either the spokesperson explicitly saying it's due to database gives the real reason or a made-up reason, in the latter case he's lying
    - emmelaich 2y ago
      The database might be a minor reason. Or major reason. Perhaps the quoted person is not an expert. Maybe he's incompetent. Lying is not required.
      - eviks 2y ago
        Minor reason is still real, as is major, and you said there are no other reasons besides made up safety. Ang why do you need to be an expert here? but I see you can deny even the much more basic fact that ' isn't punctuation...
        emmelaich 2y ago
        Made up? Omitting punctuation from signs predates computers by decades.
        eviks 2y ago
        So? There are more obvious explanations than safety
        emmelaich 2y ago
        e.g.?
        eviks 2y ago
        Check the other top comment you've already read for an e.
paranoidrobot 2y ago
Do you have a source for that being a rule? I'm pretty sure I have seen road signs with punctuation, but would have to go digging.
colimbarna 2y ago
There's a fair number of apostrophes in fact. Here's an example: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZSVi4GfuAgcUspm2A https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZSVi4GfuAgcUspm2A (Note that Google's database seems to lack the apostrophe in that name). Rules such as the following (NSW GNB) are common: > The following types of punctuation as used in Australian English shall not be included as part of a geographical name: period (.), comma (,), colon (:), semi-colon (;), quotation marks (“”), exclamation mark (!), question mark (?), ellipsis (…), hyphen (-), solidus (/) and parenthesis (()). For surnames or other names that include a hyphen, the hyphen shall be omitted when used for a geographical name. > 5 An apostrophe mark shall not be included in geographical names written with a final ‘s’, and the possessive ‘s shall not be included e.g. Georges River not George’s River. Apostrophes forming part of an eponymous name shall be included (e.g. O’Connell Plains). The explanation in the NSW GWB guide is that it allows for consistency and predictability. If you know that a river is pronounced "Georges River" and its official name followed customary rules, you wouldn't know how it was spelt unless you knew if it was named for George or for Georges. Honestly, I'm sceptical of all explanations. It's more that they find them annoying. Until 2015 the standard font used in Australian road signs AS 1744-1975 didn't have a apostrophe or a hyphen defined, but at least hyphens and slashes were defined in the related AS 1743 or state-based augmentations of it because they were used in signs like O'Briens Rd or time ranges on parking signs. The current AS 1744:2015 standard does have punctuation - and the standard punctuation for citing standards has changed in the interim. The attached article says that apostrophes have special meanings to computer databases, but this comment (which uses various bits of punctuation) will be stored in a computer database even with apostrophes. It's not like we programmers are incapable of handling them. But I also find the counter arguments to be a bit ad hoc. Are Australians so much worse at literacy because of a lack of apostrophes on road signs? Does the correct use of apostrophes materially affect literacy in any way at all? They want the apostrophes because they're used to them. I wish we could just state the actual reason for decisions and preferences, instead of trying to make our reasons seem more logical and neutral.
- emmelaich 2y ago
  Not sure I'd call the ' in O'Brien punctuation at all. It's an attempt to render Ó in our alphabet. But neither is punctuation in say d'Angelo either imho. PS. Do you have links to the standards you quoted?
emmelaich 2y ago
OK I should have said they use punctuation very sparingly. I went looking for the Australian Standard for these things but it costs over $100 to obtain. Also - I am half-remembering something I read like 30 years ago when I was working for government agency that dealt often with the geographical names board.

viraptor 2y ago

(citation needed). What safety/clarity is given by removing apostrophes from names? Especially in the country already using lots of indigenous names forced into almost-English pronunciation?

eviks 2y ago

What is the mechanism behind how a different practice in Australia explains the officials lying about the real reason here?

emmelaich 2y ago
Gell-Mann amnesia. I don't think they lying; they are probably being selectively quoted and the article written to be as click-baity as possible.
- eviks 2y ago
  Quoting is visible after you've clicked, so doesn't bait. Not sure how amnesia would explain anything either. > I don't think they lying You can't have it both ways, either the spokesperson explicitly saying it's due to database gives the real reason or a made-up reason, in the latter case he's lying
  - emmelaich 2y ago
    The database might be a minor reason. Or major reason. Perhaps the quoted person is not an expert. Maybe he's incompetent. Lying is not required.
    - eviks 2y ago
      Minor reason is still real, as is major, and you said there are no other reasons besides made up safety. Ang why do you need to be an expert here? but I see you can deny even the much more basic fact that ' isn't punctuation...
      - emmelaich 2y ago
        Made up? Omitting punctuation from signs predates computers by decades.
        eviks 2y ago
        So? There are more obvious explanations than safety
        emmelaich 2y ago
        e.g.?
        eviks 2y ago
        Check the other top comment you've already read for an e.

paranoidrobot 2y ago

Do you have a source for that being a rule? I'm pretty sure I have seen road signs with punctuation, but would have to go digging.

colimbarna 2y ago

There's a fair number of apostrophes in fact. Here's an example: https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZSVi4GfuAgcUspm2A https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZSVi4GfuAgcUspm2A (Note that Google's database seems to lack the apostrophe in that name). Rules such as the following (NSW GNB) are common: > The following types of punctuation as used in Australian English shall not be included as part of a geographical name: period (.), comma (,), colon (:), semi-colon (;), quotation marks (“”), exclamation mark (!), question mark (?), ellipsis (…), hyphen (-), solidus (/) and parenthesis (()). For surnames or other names that include a hyphen, the hyphen shall be omitted when used for a geographical name. > 5 An apostrophe mark shall not be included in geographical names written with a final ‘s’, and the possessive ‘s shall not be included e.g. Georges River not George’s River. Apostrophes forming part of an eponymous name shall be included (e.g. O’Connell Plains). The explanation in the NSW GWB guide is that it allows for consistency and predictability. If you know that a river is pronounced "Georges River" and its official name followed customary rules, you wouldn't know how it was spelt unless you knew if it was named for George or for Georges. Honestly, I'm sceptical of all explanations. It's more that they find them annoying. Until 2015 the standard font used in Australian road signs AS 1744-1975 didn't have a apostrophe or a hyphen defined, but at least hyphens and slashes were defined in the related AS 1743 or state-based augmentations of it because they were used in signs like O'Briens Rd or time ranges on parking signs. The current AS 1744:2015 standard does have punctuation - and the standard punctuation for citing standards has changed in the interim. The attached article says that apostrophes have special meanings to computer databases, but this comment (which uses various bits of punctuation) will be stored in a computer database even with apostrophes. It's not like we programmers are incapable of handling them. But I also find the counter arguments to be a bit ad hoc. Are Australians so much worse at literacy because of a lack of apostrophes on road signs? Does the correct use of apostrophes materially affect literacy in any way at all? They want the apostrophes because they're used to them. I wish we could just state the actual reason for decisions and preferences, instead of trying to make our reasons seem more logical and neutral.

emmelaich 2y ago
Not sure I'd call the ' in O'Brien punctuation at all. It's an attempt to render Ó in our alphabet. But neither is punctuation in say d'Angelo either imho. PS. Do you have links to the standards you quoted?

emmelaich 2y ago

OK I should have said they use punctuation very sparingly. I went looking for the Australian Standard for these things but it costs over $100 to obtain. Also - I am half-remembering something I read like 30 years ago when I was working for government agency that dealt often with the geographical names board.