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0% of those who accept Israeli government wholeheartedly, choose to live as law-abiding citizens, and teach their children to do the same (similar to many Israe

by dakom 2y ago

0% of those who accept Israeli government wholeheartedly, choose to live as law-abiding citizens, and teach their children to do the same (similar to many Israeli-Arab and Druze populations today). 100% of those who actively support the eradication of Israel and driving every Jew into the sea. In the middle, it may need to lean to less tolerance due to the reality of democracy and demographics, but I'm not sure. My hope would be that most would fit in the 0% category.

runarberg 2y ago
Your 0% category fits into a schoolbook example of colonialism. If your hope is that most people accept being colonized and loosing any prospect of self determination, and potentially their identity, then your hope is that a whole peoples just allows a colonizer to determine their fate in peace. It is not only unrealistic, but also an outdated 19th century view of geopolitics, with a history full of racism, genocide and other horrors.
- dakom 2y ago
  You have it completely inverted. I am talking about the indigenous people returning to their land. I am talking about the original (and much more prolific) religious claims to land being restored over subsequent weak-claimed usurpers. That's literally the opposite of colonialism. (by "weak" I just mean the opposite of prolific.. not sure what the right word would be there, i.e. Judaism has super strong ties to Israel- agricultural laws of orlah and shemittah, recorded purchase and significance of Hebron, daily prayer for over 2000 years to rebuild Jerusalem. No other religion has anywhere near this strong of a connection to the land).
  - dunekid 2y ago
    I am not sure who do you mean by usurpers. Here is the colonisers association, tasked with creating colonies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Association https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Associat... The colony in Palestine took off, due to the British preference of solidifying european control over Ottoman region, and the convenient façade of the historical claim. People lived there before this are descendents of those who lived there in the past. Many stayed even after the expulsion by Romans, many returned. Some, obviously would have changed their faith, but none of that gives the European descendents any more right over it. We can all colonise Ethiopia if we were to go on like this.
    - dakom 2y ago
      Starting in the 1800's is pretty arbitrary. Try going back a couple thousand years. I am not interested in debating Ethiopia, I know nothing about it, and wouldn't presume to take a strong position on a subject I know so little about. "Usurpers" in that context was specifically about religious claim, where Islam has both a far weaker and far later claim than Judaism
      - racional 2y ago
        Try going back a couple thousand years. And then a few more, for good measure. The only legitimate heirs to the region are the Bronze Age Canaanites. The only legitimate religious claim is held by the followers of El and Asherah. All others are usurpers and latecomers.
racional 2y ago
It sounds you are basically advocating for the Decisive Plan as put forth by the current Minister of Finance. Am I reading you correctly, here? Do you have a sense as to what portion of the non-Arab population in Israel would support such a project? A rough percentage estimate would be greatly appreciated.
- dakom 2y ago
  Interesting.. believe it or not, I don't pay much attention to politics as I often feel like they miss the forest for the trees and exchange integrity for votes. But at a glance- it seems like I am in fact proposing something like his Decisive Plan. I suppose the main difference is I am dreaming that it comes about through peace and with world support- especially Arab support. I don't want it to be forced through violence. Unfortunately, it may be inevitable... I can't even get people on hacker news to retract their erroneous accusations of genocide. What hope is there for a peaceful "180 degree" turn? I keep wanting to believe the world is not full of anti-semites, it's just an issue of misunderstanding, and I keep finding I am wrong... in that context, something like the decisive plan may need to be forced through war eventually. God I hope it doesn't come to that. Re: stats, I don't have that info.. if I had to guess, I would say that a plan like this is hugely unpopular in Israel- but I would also guess that it's like that because it implies a lot of suffering in today's climate, and it would be much more accepted if the Palestinians wanted it too.
  - racional 2y ago
    Well, thanks for clarifying at least. If things do come to that -- it definitely won't be an inevitability, but a conscious choice on the part of those responsible.

by dakom 2y ago

runarberg 2y ago

Your 0% category fits into a schoolbook example of colonialism. If your hope is that most people accept being colonized and loosing any prospect of self determination, and potentially their identity, then your hope is that a whole peoples just allows a colonizer to determine their fate in peace. It is not only unrealistic, but also an outdated 19th century view of geopolitics, with a history full of racism, genocide and other horrors.

dakom 2y ago
You have it completely inverted. I am talking about the indigenous people returning to their land. I am talking about the original (and much more prolific) religious claims to land being restored over subsequent weak-claimed usurpers. That's literally the opposite of colonialism. (by "weak" I just mean the opposite of prolific.. not sure what the right word would be there, i.e. Judaism has super strong ties to Israel- agricultural laws of orlah and shemittah, recorded purchase and significance of Hebron, daily prayer for over 2000 years to rebuild Jerusalem. No other religion has anywhere near this strong of a connection to the land).
- dunekid 2y ago
  I am not sure who do you mean by usurpers. Here is the colonisers association, tasked with creating colonies: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Association https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Colonisation_Associat... The colony in Palestine took off, due to the British preference of solidifying european control over Ottoman region, and the convenient façade of the historical claim. People lived there before this are descendents of those who lived there in the past. Many stayed even after the expulsion by Romans, many returned. Some, obviously would have changed their faith, but none of that gives the European descendents any more right over it. We can all colonise Ethiopia if we were to go on like this.
  - dakom 2y ago
    Starting in the 1800's is pretty arbitrary. Try going back a couple thousand years. I am not interested in debating Ethiopia, I know nothing about it, and wouldn't presume to take a strong position on a subject I know so little about. "Usurpers" in that context was specifically about religious claim, where Islam has both a far weaker and far later claim than Judaism
    - racional 2y ago
      Try going back a couple thousand years. And then a few more, for good measure. The only legitimate heirs to the region are the Bronze Age Canaanites. The only legitimate religious claim is held by the followers of El and Asherah. All others are usurpers and latecomers.

racional 2y ago

It sounds you are basically advocating for the Decisive Plan as put forth by the current Minister of Finance. Am I reading you correctly, here? Do you have a sense as to what portion of the non-Arab population in Israel would support such a project? A rough percentage estimate would be greatly appreciated.

dakom 2y ago
Interesting.. believe it or not, I don't pay much attention to politics as I often feel like they miss the forest for the trees and exchange integrity for votes. But at a glance- it seems like I am in fact proposing something like his Decisive Plan. I suppose the main difference is I am dreaming that it comes about through peace and with world support- especially Arab support. I don't want it to be forced through violence. Unfortunately, it may be inevitable... I can't even get people on hacker news to retract their erroneous accusations of genocide. What hope is there for a peaceful "180 degree" turn? I keep wanting to believe the world is not full of anti-semites, it's just an issue of misunderstanding, and I keep finding I am wrong... in that context, something like the decisive plan may need to be forced through war eventually. God I hope it doesn't come to that. Re: stats, I don't have that info.. if I had to guess, I would say that a plan like this is hugely unpopular in Israel- but I would also guess that it's like that because it implies a lot of suffering in today's climate, and it would be much more accepted if the Palestinians wanted it too.
- racional 2y ago
  Well, thanks for clarifying at least. If things do come to that -- it definitely won't be an inevitability, but a conscious choice on the part of those responsible.