3 ms·

The MLIR aspects of Mojo are really interesting but I can't help but feel that the language itself is basically just going to be a hodge-podge of semi-random cr

by mhh__ 2y ago

The MLIR aspects of Mojo are really interesting but I can't help but feel that the language itself is basically just going to be a hodge-podge of semi-random crap bolted onto python (which is already a few decades of semi-random shit held together with a committee and a dream). I've written a tiny bit now and I can feel some new dimensionality that I'm not used to (e.g. the ownership and borrowing story in a language that doesn't really let you syntactically express ref/value seems a bit like marketing-driven-design), which can't be a good thing given that I'm not just an "AI programmer" that the mojo people seem to be aiming for. I'd gladly switch the python code I have now over to mojo - python is slow and ugly - but in the long term the joined-at-the-hip relationship with python could put the language in a weird position: It might get you some early customers (every python-but-faster variant has) but what happens after that? It's an odd place to be (that and culturally your main influence is now going to be python programmers who are often either inexperienced or plain mediocre - selection effects)

melodyogonna 2y ago
Hacker news predictions (and sentiments) about new technology always fall flat on its face. You tried a new language that made it obvious it was still very early and evolving fast, then based your whole prediction of this language's future on this early alpha version. Typical
- mhh__ 2y ago
  It's a new language that has a very clear structural relationship to another language. Unless they change direction it's possible to reason about its future. Rust now looks pretty similar to the Rust I first used in 2015-ish, surprise?
  - melodyogonna 2y ago
    Rust was started in 2006, it had already undergone 9 years of development by 2015. in fact, it reached stability in 2015. According to Mojo's changelog, it was started in September 2022, which makes it less than 2 years old in active development... but even then, it'll look a lot like its final form by year's end.
- itishappy 2y ago
  > Hacker news predictions (and sentiments) about new technology always fall flat on its face. Frankly, most new tech falls flat on it's face. Take a look at Wikpedia's list of programming languages created in the past 14 years. There's some winners, true, but there's plenty of cruft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_programming_languages#2010s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_programming_langua... You this optimistic about Carbon as well?
fbdab103 2y ago
I am not sure what other options are really on the table. I have several grievances with Python, but it has the biggest community. If I want a library for...well anything, there is going to be one written in Python. Stuck on a problem? There is probably a blog post or SO thread from someone in the exact same situation. Bootstrapping a new scripting language sounds incredibly difficult unless you have the cash or mindshare to get others to follow. Which is unfortunate, because I think a new language with lessons learned since Python could have a lot of performance and usability improvements vs where we are now.

by mhh__ 2y ago

melodyogonna 2y ago

Hacker news predictions (and sentiments) about new technology always fall flat on its face. You tried a new language that made it obvious it was still very early and evolving fast, then based your whole prediction of this language's future on this early alpha version. Typical

mhh__ 2y ago
It's a new language that has a very clear structural relationship to another language. Unless they change direction it's possible to reason about its future. Rust now looks pretty similar to the Rust I first used in 2015-ish, surprise?
- melodyogonna 2y ago
  Rust was started in 2006, it had already undergone 9 years of development by 2015. in fact, it reached stability in 2015. According to Mojo's changelog, it was started in September 2022, which makes it less than 2 years old in active development... but even then, it'll look a lot like its final form by year's end.
itishappy 2y ago
> Hacker news predictions (and sentiments) about new technology always fall flat on its face. Frankly, most new tech falls flat on it's face. Take a look at Wikpedia's list of programming languages created in the past 14 years. There's some winners, true, but there's plenty of cruft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_programming_languages#2010s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_programming_langua... You this optimistic about Carbon as well?

fbdab103 2y ago

I am not sure what other options are really on the table. I have several grievances with Python, but it has the biggest community. If I want a library for...well anything, there is going to be one written in Python. Stuck on a problem? There is probably a blog post or SO thread from someone in the exact same situation. Bootstrapping a new scripting language sounds incredibly difficult unless you have the cash or mindshare to get others to follow. Which is unfortunate, because I think a new language with lessons learned since Python could have a lot of performance and usability improvements vs where we are now.