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I’m not a recruiter, but I am in “Big Tech”, and dealing with founders, or even just people who have only worked at startups, is frustrating. They tend to have

I’m not a recruiter, but I am in “Big Tech”, and dealing with founders, or even just people who have only worked at startups, is frustrating. They tend to have underdeveloped skills in teamwork and listening to authority. Honestly, I just want likable people who will execute on my ideas (or the ideas I’m simply passing on from higher management), or with light discussion, even if the execution isn’t perfect. I feel like a lot of corporate work is like this.

thinkingkong 2y ago
Without noticing you might have pointed out one of the reasons founder type people are founder type people. Blindly follow orders isnt really on most startup folks’ list of things to do.
- WWLink 2y ago
  > Blindly follow orders isnt really on most startup folks’ list of things to do. The really funny thing I'm thinking about here is when I bring people onto a project I'm leading: I give them an intro to the project, all of the components at play, the needs of the project... and then introduce them to something they could work on and the general gist of what needs to be done. For some people that's enough to take it and run (and check in with feedback, minimal viable product, look for "does this sound good?" kinda stuff). For others it really feels like they need to be spoonfed an entire spec down to block diagrams, flowcharts, sequence diagrams, etc. And I've worked with teams that wanted that before we even assigned any software engineers to the project. Meanwhile I'm trying to get SOMETHING on a computer so we can start looking for the bugs that take a long time to manifest themselves. (and "that's not what we were expecting it to do!" from the systems team lol) Anyway, I can say that's not necessarily a big enterprise vs startup thing. It's more of a team vs team thing. IDK about startups.
  - thinkingkong 2y ago
    Oh! Yeah I think I know what you mean. I - personally - would attribute that to fear. People from certain experiences or backgrounds dont want to be wrong or look bad. So they’ll demand a spec instead of being given general guidance. To me people who need spoon feeding and entirely dismissable if they cant be coached. The whole style that seems to work best is “we need to cross this river” rather than “build me a temporary pontoon bridge that can carry a tank”.
    - peterhi 2y ago
      Oh god we had this in team building exercises in the woods. "Here's a pile of junk, work out how to cross a stream without getting wet". One guy grabbed a long piece of wood and vaulted over the stream, others weren't satisfied until they had incorporated every single item from the pile of junk into the solution It suddenly made it clear how each person worked that I couldn't see in the office
      - WWLink 2y ago
        lmao at the "One guy grabbed a long piece of wood and vaulted over the stream" that's efficient as hell lol.
- tom_ 2y ago
  I assumed OP is well aware that the question is why these people took the big tech job in the first place, because it is obvious that it would be like this. Is this rocket science? I say no.
RHSeeger 2y ago
> I just want likable people who will execute on my ideas (or the ideas I’m simply passing on from higher management), or with light discussion, even if the execution isn’t perfect. That sounds horrible. I want people working under/with me that will question the work, that will try to figure out if it's the right work. It is common for decisions "from higher management" to be made without a real in-depth knowledge of how the system(s) work. When that happens, there may be a (possibly radically) better approach that can be taken. Software developers are generally paid a lot of money. Not taking advantage of their experience and problem solving ability sounds like a waste of money.
- andy99 2y ago
  Startup or not, you're not always being paid to think, even if you're capable of it. It's super annoying to work with people who only want to push back when it's not part of the mandate - just like it's annoying to work with people who don't think for themselves when it's expected. Knowing what the job is is and important skill no matter where you work, if somebody can't do that it's a big problem.
  - SebFender 2y ago
    Totally on point. Sometimes you just have to roll with it.
- JustLurking2022 2y ago
  I've worked in both sorts of companies. The constant questioning may work well at smaller scale but kills productivity at larger scales. Putting aside that it inevitably becomes a political exercise as much as a technical one (because the different technical solutions almost always reflect competing priorities), it also requires perfect sharing of information across the organization, which does not scale. Especially in any sales driven organization, I've seen it cause issues with infra teams questioning the need for certain features. Meanwhile, the answer is that the features are necessary because someone is willing to pay $$$ for them.
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
makk 2y ago
Sounds awfully dreary.
- outop 2y ago
  Some people want to dedicate a lot of their work time and energy to LARPing Tony Stark. Other people just want to deliver the value the company needs, get paid, and pursue their other goals outside of their job.
  - makk 2y ago
    In English?
    - j-bos 2y ago
      Some people want to work for a living, not live from working.
    - josh-sematic 2y ago
      My attempted translation: “Some people try to pretend to be a lone visionary genius who is wildly productive but also is an asshole to coworkers/authority. Other people don’t care that much about such ‘lone genius’ narratives and are much more interested in just doing what their boss tells them they must to earn a paycheck.” Seems like a false dichotomy to me but I believe that’s what they’re trying to communicate.
shrubble 2y ago
Well, what is the source of 'authority' in your view? Is it 'this is the best way to do it in my view', or is it 'because I said so'?
szundi 2y ago
You are bound to stay the leader of mediocre teams then. You could at least bother with 2 or 3 of these who would make wonders - or fired based upon what you just said. But mediocre is … comforting.
cushychicken 2y ago
Most people in management say they want independent thinkers, but in reality, they want what you want: good soldiers.
- bdw5204 2y ago
  They want a good soldier who pretends to be an independent thinker not an independent thinker who pretends to be a good soldier. You can see this from the advice given to people looking to game interviews. Also from the lack of interview success for those who don't game interviews.

thinkingkong 2y ago

Without noticing you might have pointed out one of the reasons founder type people are founder type people. Blindly follow orders isnt really on most startup folks’ list of things to do.

WWLink 2y ago
> Blindly follow orders isnt really on most startup folks’ list of things to do. The really funny thing I'm thinking about here is when I bring people onto a project I'm leading: I give them an intro to the project, all of the components at play, the needs of the project... and then introduce them to something they could work on and the general gist of what needs to be done. For some people that's enough to take it and run (and check in with feedback, minimal viable product, look for "does this sound good?" kinda stuff). For others it really feels like they need to be spoonfed an entire spec down to block diagrams, flowcharts, sequence diagrams, etc. And I've worked with teams that wanted that before we even assigned any software engineers to the project. Meanwhile I'm trying to get SOMETHING on a computer so we can start looking for the bugs that take a long time to manifest themselves. (and "that's not what we were expecting it to do!" from the systems team lol) Anyway, I can say that's not necessarily a big enterprise vs startup thing. It's more of a team vs team thing. IDK about startups.
- thinkingkong 2y ago
  Oh! Yeah I think I know what you mean. I - personally - would attribute that to fear. People from certain experiences or backgrounds dont want to be wrong or look bad. So they’ll demand a spec instead of being given general guidance. To me people who need spoon feeding and entirely dismissable if they cant be coached. The whole style that seems to work best is “we need to cross this river” rather than “build me a temporary pontoon bridge that can carry a tank”.
  - peterhi 2y ago
    Oh god we had this in team building exercises in the woods. "Here's a pile of junk, work out how to cross a stream without getting wet". One guy grabbed a long piece of wood and vaulted over the stream, others weren't satisfied until they had incorporated every single item from the pile of junk into the solution It suddenly made it clear how each person worked that I couldn't see in the office
    - WWLink 2y ago
      lmao at the "One guy grabbed a long piece of wood and vaulted over the stream" that's efficient as hell lol.
tom_ 2y ago
I assumed OP is well aware that the question is why these people took the big tech job in the first place, because it is obvious that it would be like this. Is this rocket science? I say no.

RHSeeger 2y ago

> I just want likable people who will execute on my ideas (or the ideas I’m simply passing on from higher management), or with light discussion, even if the execution isn’t perfect. That sounds horrible. I want people working under/with me that will question the work, that will try to figure out if it's the right work. It is common for decisions "from higher management" to be made without a real in-depth knowledge of how the system(s) work. When that happens, there may be a (possibly radically) better approach that can be taken. Software developers are generally paid a lot of money. Not taking advantage of their experience and problem solving ability sounds like a waste of money.

andy99 2y ago
Startup or not, you're not always being paid to think, even if you're capable of it. It's super annoying to work with people who only want to push back when it's not part of the mandate - just like it's annoying to work with people who don't think for themselves when it's expected. Knowing what the job is is and important skill no matter where you work, if somebody can't do that it's a big problem.
- SebFender 2y ago
  Totally on point. Sometimes you just have to roll with it.
JustLurking2022 2y ago
I've worked in both sorts of companies. The constant questioning may work well at smaller scale but kills productivity at larger scales. Putting aside that it inevitably becomes a political exercise as much as a technical one (because the different technical solutions almost always reflect competing priorities), it also requires perfect sharing of information across the organization, which does not scale. Especially in any sales driven organization, I've seen it cause issues with infra teams questioning the need for certain features. Meanwhile, the answer is that the features are necessary because someone is willing to pay $$$ for them.
- 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

makk 2y ago

Sounds awfully dreary.

outop 2y ago
Some people want to dedicate a lot of their work time and energy to LARPing Tony Stark. Other people just want to deliver the value the company needs, get paid, and pursue their other goals outside of their job.
- makk 2y ago
  In English?
  - j-bos 2y ago
    Some people want to work for a living, not live from working.
  - josh-sematic 2y ago
    My attempted translation: “Some people try to pretend to be a lone visionary genius who is wildly productive but also is an asshole to coworkers/authority. Other people don’t care that much about such ‘lone genius’ narratives and are much more interested in just doing what their boss tells them they must to earn a paycheck.” Seems like a false dichotomy to me but I believe that’s what they’re trying to communicate.

shrubble 2y ago

Well, what is the source of 'authority' in your view? Is it 'this is the best way to do it in my view', or is it 'because I said so'?

szundi 2y ago

You are bound to stay the leader of mediocre teams then. You could at least bother with 2 or 3 of these who would make wonders - or fired based upon what you just said. But mediocre is … comforting.

cushychicken 2y ago

Most people in management say they want independent thinkers, but in reality, they want what you want: good soldiers.

bdw5204 2y ago
They want a good soldier who pretends to be an independent thinker not an independent thinker who pretends to be a good soldier. You can see this from the advice given to people looking to game interviews. Also from the lack of interview success for those who don't game interviews.