4 ms·

There literally is no such thing as a social credit score. This is one of the most bizarre yet persistent and widely believed myths out there. Go ask any of yo

There literally is no such thing as a social credit score. This is one of the most bizarre yet persistent and widely believed myths out there. Go ask any of your Chinese colleagues what their "social credit score" is in China. They don't have one. The only people in China who have ever heard of "social credit scores" are people who are familiar with Western internet memes. > the basis for denying people the ability to leave the country Exit bans are applied when someone is facing legal proceedings, and they're considered a flight risk. Again, there simply is no citizen scoring system in China. Doesn't exist.

imiric 2y ago
Repeating the same talking points doesn't make them true. Even if there is no nationwide "social credit score", local governments have been experimenting with an incentive and penalty system for decades now. This is well documented inside and outside of China. Even the new nationwide law set in place in 2022[1] mentions some of the same practices carried out by local governments: > There are 14 penalty measures for untrustworthiness, broken into 3 types [...] such as restricting entry in a marketplace or industry, restrictions on holing [sic] positions, restrictions on spending, restrictions on exiting the country, restrictions on promotion to a higher level of schooling, and so forth [...] The law is so vague that I can imagine in practice it's abused for all sorts of things, such as "causing unrest", "spreading falsehoods", or whatever the local or central government deems to go against their bottom line. Even sources that try to label this as a myth[2,3] can't avoid mentioning that these systems do exist as localized "pilots". So whether or not this is done nationwide, whether or not a "score" exists for individual citizens, and whether or not they're aware of it, doesn't make this a myth, or some form of Western propaganda. Your statements that all of this is a myth is patently false. Please stop spreading disinformation. [1]: https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/sc-punishment-list/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/sc-punishment-list/ [2]: https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-unt... [3]: https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-announced-a-new-social-credit-law-what-does-it-mean/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-an...
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  > local governments have been experimenting with an incentive and penalty system for decades now. False. There were one or two towns that implemented opt-in rewards programs, in which you could get benefits like deposit waivers at the local library and other minor perks. > The law is so vague that I can imagine in practice it's abused for all sorts of things You're trying to read and interpret a law for yourself - one that you admit you have trouble understanding. Instead of trying to figure out what the legalese means for yourself, read what an expert says. You linked to the law at "China Law Translate," which is a project at Yale run by the guy I recommended earlier: Jeremy Daum. Jeremy Daum has expended a lot of effort trying to explain to the media that the Social Credit System has nothing to do with scoring, that it's mainly aimed at businesses (not private individuals), and that the only way you can be subject to any penalties under the system is if you are sentenced by a court of law under an already existing criminal statute. I'll give you a very concrete example of how a private individual would actually interact with the Social Credit System. There's an MMA fighter in China who is famous for challenging and then beating up traditional martial artists. He challenged an old master who refused to fight. He then started insulting the old master in public. The old master sued the MMA fighter for defamation and won. The MMA fighter was ordered by the court to pay a fine and apologize, but he refused to do so. This is where the Social Credit System came in, after the guy was sentenced. Because he was in default of a court judgment, the MMA fighter was put on a blacklist, which among other things prevented him from buying high-speed-train tickets. That's how the system actually works for private individuals. It is nothing like the internet meme about everyone having a score that goes up and down whenever they post an online comment. It's a system that can apply additional penalties to people who default on court judgments, but which mostly deals with corporate regulation. The basic idea is that businesses that have a good track record for obeying regulations and honoring contracts should receive less scrutiny, while businesses that have bad track records should receive additional scrutiny, be barred from getting government contracts, etc.
  - imiric 2y ago
    > > local governments have been experimenting with an incentive and penalty system for decades now. > > False. There were one or two towns that implemented opt-in rewards programs, in which you could get benefits like deposit waivers at the local library and other minor perks. https://sites.ischool.berkeley.edu/blog/2024/02/23/chinas-social-credit-system-using-data-science-to-rebuild-trust-in-chinese-society/ https://sites.ischool.berkeley.edu/blog/2024/02/23/chinas-so... > Beyond a mere pipedream, there are currently 36 pilot programs deployed in some of China’s largest cities. > Individual scores and grades for residents. Misbehaving (littering, jaywalking) results in score reduction and punishment; exemplary behavior (caring for aged parents) in good ratings and benefits. > > The law is so vague that I can imagine in practice it's abused for all sorts of things > > You're trying to read and interpret a law for yourself - one that you admit you have trouble understanding. No, I'm perfectly capable of understanding what the law says. It's the language itself that is vague and open to interpretation. > Instead of trying to figure out what the legalese means for yourself, read what an expert says. No, thank you. I don't need an "expert" to regurgitate what the law says. And what it says is simply a formalization of what localized pilots have been applying for years now, except that it's now a nationwide law. > that it's mainly aimed at businesses (not private individuals) Businesses are not the ones littering, jaywalking, or cheating on tests, and being posted on shaming billboards. > I'll give you a very concrete example of how a private individual would actually interact with the Social Credit System. Look, you can cherry pick examples all day long. I'm sure that in a country of 1.4 billion people there will be many such cases. But the reality is that there's a draconian law that is open to interpretation by local governments to punish people in whatever way they please. The law says so: > Where local regulations have special provisions on penalty measures other than those provided for in this list, the local unit leading the establishment of the social credit system, in conjunction with relevant departments (units) may implement supplemental lists based on local regulations to be used only in that region. All of this is hardly an issue, though. Whether or not a scoring system exists should not be the main topic of discussion, when people are being arrested or disappeared for some of this same behavior. Or is that also Western propaganda?

imiric 2y ago

Repeating the same talking points doesn't make them true. Even if there is no nationwide "social credit score", local governments have been experimenting with an incentive and penalty system for decades now. This is well documented inside and outside of China. Even the new nationwide law set in place in 2022[1] mentions some of the same practices carried out by local governments: > There are 14 penalty measures for untrustworthiness, broken into 3 types [...] such as restricting entry in a marketplace or industry, restrictions on holing [sic] positions, restrictions on spending, restrictions on exiting the country, restrictions on promotion to a higher level of schooling, and so forth [...] The law is so vague that I can imagine in practice it's abused for all sorts of things, such as "causing unrest", "spreading falsehoods", or whatever the local or central government deems to go against their bottom line. Even sources that try to label this as a myth[2,3] can't avoid mentioning that these systems do exist as localized "pilots". So whether or not this is done nationwide, whether or not a "score" exists for individual citizens, and whether or not they're aware of it, doesn't make this a myth, or some form of Western propaganda. Your statements that all of this is a myth is patently false. Please stop spreading disinformation. [1]: https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/sc-punishment-list/ https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/sc-punishment-list/ [2]: https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-unt... [3]: https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-announced-a-new-social-credit-law-what-does-it-mean/ https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/11/22/1063605/china-an...

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
> local governments have been experimenting with an incentive and penalty system for decades now. False. There were one or two towns that implemented opt-in rewards programs, in which you could get benefits like deposit waivers at the local library and other minor perks. > The law is so vague that I can imagine in practice it's abused for all sorts of things You're trying to read and interpret a law for yourself - one that you admit you have trouble understanding. Instead of trying to figure out what the legalese means for yourself, read what an expert says. You linked to the law at "China Law Translate," which is a project at Yale run by the guy I recommended earlier: Jeremy Daum. Jeremy Daum has expended a lot of effort trying to explain to the media that the Social Credit System has nothing to do with scoring, that it's mainly aimed at businesses (not private individuals), and that the only way you can be subject to any penalties under the system is if you are sentenced by a court of law under an already existing criminal statute. I'll give you a very concrete example of how a private individual would actually interact with the Social Credit System. There's an MMA fighter in China who is famous for challenging and then beating up traditional martial artists. He challenged an old master who refused to fight. He then started insulting the old master in public. The old master sued the MMA fighter for defamation and won. The MMA fighter was ordered by the court to pay a fine and apologize, but he refused to do so. This is where the Social Credit System came in, after the guy was sentenced. Because he was in default of a court judgment, the MMA fighter was put on a blacklist, which among other things prevented him from buying high-speed-train tickets. That's how the system actually works for private individuals. It is nothing like the internet meme about everyone having a score that goes up and down whenever they post an online comment. It's a system that can apply additional penalties to people who default on court judgments, but which mostly deals with corporate regulation. The basic idea is that businesses that have a good track record for obeying regulations and honoring contracts should receive less scrutiny, while businesses that have bad track records should receive additional scrutiny, be barred from getting government contracts, etc.
- imiric 2y ago
  > > local governments have been experimenting with an incentive and penalty system for decades now. > > False. There were one or two towns that implemented opt-in rewards programs, in which you could get benefits like deposit waivers at the local library and other minor perks. https://sites.ischool.berkeley.edu/blog/2024/02/23/chinas-social-credit-system-using-data-science-to-rebuild-trust-in-chinese-society/ https://sites.ischool.berkeley.edu/blog/2024/02/23/chinas-so... > Beyond a mere pipedream, there are currently 36 pilot programs deployed in some of China’s largest cities. > Individual scores and grades for residents. Misbehaving (littering, jaywalking) results in score reduction and punishment; exemplary behavior (caring for aged parents) in good ratings and benefits. > > The law is so vague that I can imagine in practice it's abused for all sorts of things > > You're trying to read and interpret a law for yourself - one that you admit you have trouble understanding. No, I'm perfectly capable of understanding what the law says. It's the language itself that is vague and open to interpretation. > Instead of trying to figure out what the legalese means for yourself, read what an expert says. No, thank you. I don't need an "expert" to regurgitate what the law says. And what it says is simply a formalization of what localized pilots have been applying for years now, except that it's now a nationwide law. > that it's mainly aimed at businesses (not private individuals) Businesses are not the ones littering, jaywalking, or cheating on tests, and being posted on shaming billboards. > I'll give you a very concrete example of how a private individual would actually interact with the Social Credit System. Look, you can cherry pick examples all day long. I'm sure that in a country of 1.4 billion people there will be many such cases. But the reality is that there's a draconian law that is open to interpretation by local governments to punish people in whatever way they please. The law says so: > Where local regulations have special provisions on penalty measures other than those provided for in this list, the local unit leading the establishment of the social credit system, in conjunction with relevant departments (units) may implement supplemental lists based on local regulations to be used only in that region. All of this is hardly an issue, though. Whether or not a scoring system exists should not be the main topic of discussion, when people are being arrested or disappeared for some of this same behavior. Or is that also Western propaganda?