4 ms·

Am I hallucinating, or does anyone remember the Steve Jobs story as the exact opposite? He used backs of a cabinet as an example of when it’s okay to cut corner

Am I hallucinating, or does anyone remember the Steve Jobs story as the exact opposite? He used backs of a cabinet as an example of when it’s okay to cut corners, since nobody would ever see it. I don’t remember where I heard it or what the context was, but it was something along the lines of him trying to get one of the early Mac engineers to ship faster. There was a lot of corner cutting to get the original iPhone launched. They barely made it in time. The parts that mattered were polished to perfection, but you wouldn’t want to use an iPhone 1 today — all the other parts you take for granted now would be painfully visible then.

jweir 2y ago
“When you’re a carpenter making a beautiful chest of drawers, you’re not going to use a piece of plywood on the back, even though it faces the wall and nobody will ever see it. You’ll know it’s there, so you’re going to use a beautiful piece of wood on the back. For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through.”
- doytch 2y ago
  Not only would a professional carpenter use plywood, it may be a sounder choice because of its stability/weight ratio.
  - brandall10 2y ago
    The point isn't about utility, it's about aesthetics - it's about how the product is finished. What you use in the back should be the same as elsewhere.
    - formerly_proven 2y ago
      Even furniture from The Old Masters doesn’t have beautiful veneered back panels, but plain, unfinished boards.
      - brandall10 2y ago
        Sure, but I'm just explaining Steve's reasoning here. People are saying it's a bad analogy without understanding what he's actually saying.
    - jodrellblank 2y ago
      On the back of the Mona Lisa should be ... another Mona Lisa?
  - nextaccountic 2y ago
    A plywood back would be prone to water damage, however
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - mrob 2y ago
      The best option is plywood for the dimensional stability, varnish for waterproofing, and solid wood edge trim to give some resilience against mechanical damage that would otherwise risk delamination. This also hides the ugly part of the plywood.
  - germinator 2y ago
    Yeah, it's a weird metaphor, especially since plywood is a premium, structural material. I wish my Ikea furniture used plywood. Instead, you get fiberboard. It's also a good example of how the metaphor this blog post is predicated on can fall apart. Your customers care about durability, but they make purchasing decisions based on cost and outward appearance. In a world like that, where you can't satisfy all requirements at once, you inevitably end up cutting corners on the things the customer cares about but can't measure. But is that right? That's how you end up with $200 furniture that lasts a year or two in a home with children or pets. It's also easy to neglect cumulative costs. Back to software: does it matter if your app uses 100 MB of memory when it could be using 1 MB? On an individual basis, no, because RAM is cheap. Cumulatively, when every other app developer thinks the same, and when you multiply it by billions of devices, your decision might have actually cost lives if you consider the increased emissions and countless other distant externalities. A milder version of the blog's claim is definitely true. You should pick your battles. But it's all about trade-offs, there are few problems that truly don't matter to anyone.
- sillysaurusx 2y ago
  Thank you for finding the quote. I stand corrected. I think I misread this at the time as him saying that no one will see it, so it doesn’t really matter. It’s an interesting experience to wake up one day and see that the meaning of one of those old stories was exactly the opposite of your takeaway. In hindsight there does seem to be some truth to this. What surprised me about the Hacker News codebase is that pg almost never cut corners. To this day I still find new features I never realized I wanted. On the other hand, pg never coded anything unless it was absolutely necessary for whatever he was trying to accomplish (or at least he presented his few public pieces of code as such), which is something I’ve had trouble emulating. Coding is just too much fun sometimes.
- 6510 2y ago
  The correct answer is: I'm not, you're not either. I've oddly asked a carpenter why he was using plywood, his response was: I'd prefer not to but this is what people want nowadays. (meaning this specific customer) If you are a software engineer you, with pride, rewrite half the company in rust and the other half in elixer. Tell the board you wont be able to sleep.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
brandall10 2y ago
I think that's two very different things - a complete set of features done poorly vs. an incomplete set of features done well. In general it's best to err on the side of the latter, it's going to give the customer a better UX. What exactly was the original iPhone missing? The only thing in the OS I recall was copy/paste. The other things we'd take for granted today likely weren't conceived then, including the App Store. The main issues was that it was a frustratingly slow experience, so OS/proc performance, and EDGE which was the best widely available at the time was insufficient.
- heromal 2y ago
  It didn't have 3G IIRC
  - brandall10 2y ago
    But they had a legitimate reason for not including it, including lack of network availability and poor battery life for the modems at the time of release. It's not something they could have innovated around.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  > The other things we'd take for granted today likely weren't conceived then, including the App Store. IIRC, one could get apps on other platforms like Blackberry, even over the web. Apple's anti-innovation was a closed-garden storefront.
  - WWLink 2y ago
    Better yet, you could download apps and transfer them to your phone manually, or download them from a webpage even - straight onto the phone. It's really sad how something so easy and straightforward was eliminated in the name of "security" lol.
disruptiveink 2y ago
You are correct. Steve definitely believed in doing things properly because you know they're there, regardless of who can see it: https://folklore.org/Signing_Party.html https://folklore.org/Signing_Party.html > Steve came up with the awesome idea of having each team member's signature engraved on the hard tool that molded the plastic case, so our signatures would appear inside the case of every Mac that rolled off the production line. Most customers would never see them, since you needed a special tool to look inside, but we would take pride in knowing that our names were in there, even if no one else knew.
- tejtm 2y ago
  That was done in Amiga 1000 cases 1985-ish. I would be surpised if they were the first. https://www.commodore-info.com/computer/item/a1000/en/desktop https://www.commodore-info.com/computer/item/a1000/en/deskto...
  - ricardobeat 2y ago
    The parent folklore.org link mentions this happened at Apple in 1982, end of first paragraph.
    - tejtm 2y ago
      And, Jobs visited Amiga in 1983 which also suggests the idea came from him.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
rmnwski 2y ago
I think you got it wrong. That's why the motherboards on macs for example are "beautiful" and black.
- iwontberude 2y ago
  A cabinetmaker creates the polished front and the unfinished rear. A software/hardware company needs everyone being part of the polished front at least in spirit. I liken it to people dressing for their job.
  - c22 2y ago
    I haven't used an Apple product in some time, but to me it always felt like their software was the unfinished rear.
    - WWLink 2y ago
      lol it's true but every single tech company does it. Most DIY PC "gaming" computer hardware companies do it with their motherboard firmware/software. Microsoft does it with practically everything because their customer isn't the end user, it's the business. Apple also does it in their firmware/low end software (sometimes making laughably goofy bugs/oversights where the edge case is "you did something apple doesn't do by default"). You see it an awful lot with internet routers lol.

jweir 2y ago

“When you’re a carpenter making a beautiful chest of drawers, you’re not going to use a piece of plywood on the back, even though it faces the wall and nobody will ever see it. You’ll know it’s there, so you’re going to use a beautiful piece of wood on the back. For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through.”

doytch 2y ago
Not only would a professional carpenter use plywood, it may be a sounder choice because of its stability/weight ratio.
- brandall10 2y ago
  The point isn't about utility, it's about aesthetics - it's about how the product is finished. What you use in the back should be the same as elsewhere.
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    Even furniture from The Old Masters doesn’t have beautiful veneered back panels, but plain, unfinished boards.
    - brandall10 2y ago
      Sure, but I'm just explaining Steve's reasoning here. People are saying it's a bad analogy without understanding what he's actually saying.
  - jodrellblank 2y ago
    On the back of the Mona Lisa should be ... another Mona Lisa?
- nextaccountic 2y ago
  A plywood back would be prone to water damage, however
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrob 2y ago
    The best option is plywood for the dimensional stability, varnish for waterproofing, and solid wood edge trim to give some resilience against mechanical damage that would otherwise risk delamination. This also hides the ugly part of the plywood.
- germinator 2y ago
  Yeah, it's a weird metaphor, especially since plywood is a premium, structural material. I wish my Ikea furniture used plywood. Instead, you get fiberboard. It's also a good example of how the metaphor this blog post is predicated on can fall apart. Your customers care about durability, but they make purchasing decisions based on cost and outward appearance. In a world like that, where you can't satisfy all requirements at once, you inevitably end up cutting corners on the things the customer cares about but can't measure. But is that right? That's how you end up with $200 furniture that lasts a year or two in a home with children or pets. It's also easy to neglect cumulative costs. Back to software: does it matter if your app uses 100 MB of memory when it could be using 1 MB? On an individual basis, no, because RAM is cheap. Cumulatively, when every other app developer thinks the same, and when you multiply it by billions of devices, your decision might have actually cost lives if you consider the increased emissions and countless other distant externalities. A milder version of the blog's claim is definitely true. You should pick your battles. But it's all about trade-offs, there are few problems that truly don't matter to anyone.
sillysaurusx 2y ago
Thank you for finding the quote. I stand corrected. I think I misread this at the time as him saying that no one will see it, so it doesn’t really matter. It’s an interesting experience to wake up one day and see that the meaning of one of those old stories was exactly the opposite of your takeaway. In hindsight there does seem to be some truth to this. What surprised me about the Hacker News codebase is that pg almost never cut corners. To this day I still find new features I never realized I wanted. On the other hand, pg never coded anything unless it was absolutely necessary for whatever he was trying to accomplish (or at least he presented his few public pieces of code as such), which is something I’ve had trouble emulating. Coding is just too much fun sometimes.
6510 2y ago
The correct answer is: I'm not, you're not either. I've oddly asked a carpenter why he was using plywood, his response was: I'd prefer not to but this is what people want nowadays. (meaning this specific customer) If you are a software engineer you, with pride, rewrite half the company in rust and the other half in elixer. Tell the board you wont be able to sleep.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

brandall10 2y ago

I think that's two very different things - a complete set of features done poorly vs. an incomplete set of features done well. In general it's best to err on the side of the latter, it's going to give the customer a better UX. What exactly was the original iPhone missing? The only thing in the OS I recall was copy/paste. The other things we'd take for granted today likely weren't conceived then, including the App Store. The main issues was that it was a frustratingly slow experience, so OS/proc performance, and EDGE which was the best widely available at the time was insufficient.

heromal 2y ago
It didn't have 3G IIRC
- brandall10 2y ago
  But they had a legitimate reason for not including it, including lack of network availability and poor battery life for the modems at the time of release. It's not something they could have innovated around.
paulryanrogers 2y ago
> The other things we'd take for granted today likely weren't conceived then, including the App Store. IIRC, one could get apps on other platforms like Blackberry, even over the web. Apple's anti-innovation was a closed-garden storefront.
- WWLink 2y ago
  Better yet, you could download apps and transfer them to your phone manually, or download them from a webpage even - straight onto the phone. It's really sad how something so easy and straightforward was eliminated in the name of "security" lol.

disruptiveink 2y ago

You are correct. Steve definitely believed in doing things properly because you know they're there, regardless of who can see it: https://folklore.org/Signing_Party.html https://folklore.org/Signing_Party.html > Steve came up with the awesome idea of having each team member's signature engraved on the hard tool that molded the plastic case, so our signatures would appear inside the case of every Mac that rolled off the production line. Most customers would never see them, since you needed a special tool to look inside, but we would take pride in knowing that our names were in there, even if no one else knew.

tejtm 2y ago
That was done in Amiga 1000 cases 1985-ish. I would be surpised if they were the first. https://www.commodore-info.com/computer/item/a1000/en/desktop https://www.commodore-info.com/computer/item/a1000/en/deskto...
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  The parent folklore.org link mentions this happened at Apple in 1982, end of first paragraph.
  - tejtm 2y ago
    And, Jobs visited Amiga in 1983 which also suggests the idea came from him.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

rmnwski 2y ago

I think you got it wrong. That's why the motherboards on macs for example are "beautiful" and black.

iwontberude 2y ago
A cabinetmaker creates the polished front and the unfinished rear. A software/hardware company needs everyone being part of the polished front at least in spirit. I liken it to people dressing for their job.
- c22 2y ago
  I haven't used an Apple product in some time, but to me it always felt like their software was the unfinished rear.
  - WWLink 2y ago
    lol it's true but every single tech company does it. Most DIY PC "gaming" computer hardware companies do it with their motherboard firmware/software. Microsoft does it with practically everything because their customer isn't the end user, it's the business. Apple also does it in their firmware/low end software (sometimes making laughably goofy bugs/oversights where the edge case is "you did something apple doesn't do by default"). You see it an awful lot with internet routers lol.