4 ms·

Conscription is slavery and slavery is evil. If a country has to resort to slavery then it doesn't deserve to exist.

by mrob 2y ago

nathanaldensr 2y ago
I agree. The average person is so removed from violence and conflict so they feel no moral or survivalist need to fight; thus, governments step in and force them--or should I say, politicians. Let's have politicians' own children go to war first and then conscript people.
- skeletal88 2y ago
  This is some kind of idealistic thinking. Putin wants war, he doesn't care if your head of government/country has children or not. He just wants to expand his soviet union or to gain more influence or whatever the current reason for his invasions is. This "let the politicians fight it out" would only make sense if there was a real disagreement between two countries, not just one guy saying "I want your land and your people" and the other one going "fuck now, I don't want anything to do with you".
tivert 2y ago
> Conscription is slavery and slavery is evil. If a country has to resort to slavery then it doesn't deserve to exist. Come on, that's nonsense logic. "Lets' make sloppy comparisons and reason from them," is never goes anywhere good. It's the same way you get to other nonsense like "taxation is theft." If you live in a community, that means sometimes the community makes decisions for you. That's not slavery, or theft, or any inflammatory word you care to choose to describe it.
- logicchains 2y ago
  >If you live in a community, that means sometimes the community makes decisions for you. Your logic is the nonsense logic used by every evil man to justify whatever atrocity they feel necessary, responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths in the 20th century alone. If every human being in the world stood up and said no to taxation and no to conscription, there wouldn't have been any world wars or genocides. It's not the "community" that decides to war, in almost all cases politicians who have a vested financial interest in war and nothing to lose, sending common people to die who have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
  - tivert 2y ago
    > Your logic is the nonsense logic used by every evil man to justify whatever atrocity they feel necessary, responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths in the 20th century alone. I think your problem is you're being too black and white and focusing too much on extreme examples. It's absolutely true that if you live in a community, that means sometimes the community makes decisions for you. If an "evil man" somehow gets control of that community, that's a different issue. > If every human being in the world stood up and said no to taxation and no to conscription, there wouldn't have been any world wars or genocides. Maybe so, but what other bad things would that impossible collective decision have caused (which is particularly true that you talk about taxation and conscription in the same breath). Everyone would certainly be living in a much lower level of technological development, without access to effective modern medical care and likely subject to famine, etc. Without taxation, you don't have law beyond custom, and without that you have no modern capitalism. And that kind of collective decision is a fantasy. Reality means the people who "say no to taxation and conscription" become the prey of people who do and organize themselves at a higher level.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
    > in almost all cases politicians who have a vested financial interest in war and nothing to lose I don't believe you grasp the intricacies of motivations of people who decided to be politicians and won the race to the top where they can start wars at will. To many of them the root cause is not money, which they already have more than they can consume in many lifetimes, but the desire to grow their power.
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  > Come on, that's nonsense logic. "Lets' make sloppy comparisons and reason from them," is never goes anywhere good. Be kind. Edit out swipes. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.[1] Conscription is slavery is not a comparison. Conscription satisfies any definition of slavery not designed to exclude conscription. Is it justifiable is a different question. Is taxation theft is a different question. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ytNumbers 2y ago
There have been plenty of moments in history where if a country doesn't resort to conscription then it won't continue to exist. If a country exists in a rough neighborhood, then its people must, unfortunately, expect to be enslaved for a few years of their life. In some ways, humanity has made little progress in the last hundred years. It's a shame that some large countries continue to have leaders that are so determined to expand the size of their country no matter the cost. It's also a shame that so many countries continue to trade with such tyrants.
- mrob 2y ago
  This is why it's so important to have a nuclear deterrent. If Russia were to invade the UK, and there was no hope of a volunteer military defending us, I strongly hope our politicians would have the courage to use our entire nuclear arsenal. Regardless of death toll, this is morally superior to enslaving people.
  - flembat 2y ago
    I understand this, to some extent, but I would rather learn Russian and get along with a new set of completely uncaring oligarchs, not that dissimilar to the ones we have now, than end all life on earth.
    - mrob 2y ago
      It wouldn't even end all life in the involved countries. Submitting to military aggression is also morally wrong. Nuclear retaliation is a heroic sacrifice that does good to the rest of the world by discouraging future wars. Furthermore, it's no longer medieval times, where the citizens are personally loyal to a king who is expected to be replaced by another king some time. The invention of nationalism guarantees civilian resistance, so the only way to safely rule a subjugated country in modern times is with a brutal North Korean-style regime.
kermatt 2y ago
Imagine the conditions for German 18 year olds if a country like Russia, which has no qualms about conscription, or forced labor for non-Russians starts to take European countries. Required military service sucks, but so does Putin.

Conscription is slavery and slavery is evil. If a country has to resort to slavery then it doesn't deserve to exist.

by mrob 2y ago

Conscription is slavery and slavery is evil. If a country has to resort to slavery then it doesn't deserve to exist.

I agree. The average person is so removed from violence and conflict so they feel no moral or survivalist need to fight; thus, governments step in and force them--or should I say, politicians. Let's have politicians' own children go to war first and then conscript people.

skeletal88 2y ago
This is some kind of idealistic thinking. Putin wants war, he doesn't care if your head of government/country has children or not. He just wants to expand his soviet union or to gain more influence or whatever the current reason for his invasions is. This "let the politicians fight it out" would only make sense if there was a real disagreement between two countries, not just one guy saying "I want your land and your people" and the other one going "fuck now, I don't want anything to do with you".

tivert 2y ago

> Conscription is slavery and slavery is evil. If a country has to resort to slavery then it doesn't deserve to exist. Come on, that's nonsense logic. "Lets' make sloppy comparisons and reason from them," is never goes anywhere good. It's the same way you get to other nonsense like "taxation is theft." If you live in a community, that means sometimes the community makes decisions for you. That's not slavery, or theft, or any inflammatory word you care to choose to describe it.

logicchains 2y ago
>If you live in a community, that means sometimes the community makes decisions for you. Your logic is the nonsense logic used by every evil man to justify whatever atrocity they feel necessary, responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths in the 20th century alone. If every human being in the world stood up and said no to taxation and no to conscription, there wouldn't have been any world wars or genocides. It's not the "community" that decides to war, in almost all cases politicians who have a vested financial interest in war and nothing to lose, sending common people to die who have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Your logic is the nonsense logic used by every evil man to justify whatever atrocity they feel necessary, responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths in the 20th century alone. I think your problem is you're being too black and white and focusing too much on extreme examples. It's absolutely true that if you live in a community, that means sometimes the community makes decisions for you. If an "evil man" somehow gets control of that community, that's a different issue. > If every human being in the world stood up and said no to taxation and no to conscription, there wouldn't have been any world wars or genocides. Maybe so, but what other bad things would that impossible collective decision have caused (which is particularly true that you talk about taxation and conscription in the same breath). Everyone would certainly be living in a much lower level of technological development, without access to effective modern medical care and likely subject to famine, etc. Without taxation, you don't have law beyond custom, and without that you have no modern capitalism. And that kind of collective decision is a fantasy. Reality means the people who "say no to taxation and conscription" become the prey of people who do and organize themselves at a higher level.
- dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
  > in almost all cases politicians who have a vested financial interest in war and nothing to lose I don't believe you grasp the intricacies of motivations of people who decided to be politicians and won the race to the top where they can start wars at will. To many of them the root cause is not money, which they already have more than they can consume in many lifetimes, but the desire to grow their power.
pseudalopex 2y ago
> Come on, that's nonsense logic. "Lets' make sloppy comparisons and reason from them," is never goes anywhere good. Be kind. Edit out swipes. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.[1] Conscription is slavery is not a comparison. Conscription satisfies any definition of slavery not designed to exclude conscription. Is it justifiable is a different question. Is taxation theft is a different question. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ytNumbers 2y ago

There have been plenty of moments in history where if a country doesn't resort to conscription then it won't continue to exist. If a country exists in a rough neighborhood, then its people must, unfortunately, expect to be enslaved for a few years of their life. In some ways, humanity has made little progress in the last hundred years. It's a shame that some large countries continue to have leaders that are so determined to expand the size of their country no matter the cost. It's also a shame that so many countries continue to trade with such tyrants.

mrob 2y ago
This is why it's so important to have a nuclear deterrent. If Russia were to invade the UK, and there was no hope of a volunteer military defending us, I strongly hope our politicians would have the courage to use our entire nuclear arsenal. Regardless of death toll, this is morally superior to enslaving people.
- flembat 2y ago
  I understand this, to some extent, but I would rather learn Russian and get along with a new set of completely uncaring oligarchs, not that dissimilar to the ones we have now, than end all life on earth.
  - mrob 2y ago
    It wouldn't even end all life in the involved countries. Submitting to military aggression is also morally wrong. Nuclear retaliation is a heroic sacrifice that does good to the rest of the world by discouraging future wars. Furthermore, it's no longer medieval times, where the citizens are personally loyal to a king who is expected to be replaced by another king some time. The invention of nationalism guarantees civilian resistance, so the only way to safely rule a subjugated country in modern times is with a brutal North Korean-style regime.

kermatt 2y ago

Imagine the conditions for German 18 year olds if a country like Russia, which has no qualms about conscription, or forced labor for non-Russians starts to take European countries. Required military service sucks, but so does Putin.