6 ms·

$7.5B investment in EV charging has only produced 7 stations in two years

22 points by xqcgrek2 2y ago

ceejayoz 2y ago
A bit of a misleading headline; $7.5B was allocated. It hasn't been all used yet. It's not as if the next seven stations will cost another $7.5B. > Nigro says that the process — states have to submit plans to the Biden administration for approval, solicit bids on the work, and then award funds — has taken much of the first two years since the funding was approved. “I expect it to go much faster in 2024,” he added.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  The Federal Highway Administration & White House only finished speccing out requirements in February 2023. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03... With due cause, in my opinion. It was hard work! This isn't just "how do we charge", but a much more comprehensive effort to make information on chargers available in real time. So people can see where chargers are, find working ones, pick where to go that will give them fast charging, and also give them a view to see over time which chargers tend to be reliable or not. There was a very smart effort to make sure enough open data would come from this initiative so that consumers can effectively use this infrastructure, and have faith in it, which seems to have been a bit of a missing link in the past with out-of-service and slow charging experiences degrading trust. This is also key to monitoring these chargers to make sure these folks remain qualified for their funding! Once standards were set, then folks have to design or update equipment to match. Data registries need to be setup to host these extensive APIs. We should expect this to take time. I am very on board here. The pace does not seem slow to me. There's a lot do complexity that had to go into building standards that would make sure this money is well used. That we haven't used billions of dollars in a year and change does not seem weird to me. It seems responsible, if we're trying to govern & help a complex ecosystem forward to benefit common welfare. This, to me, seems good. Outrage is easy, appreciating & helping the world is more complex. I'd love to see a world that can better curate & appreciate how complex things are, that can dig into the depth. A world of nuance leads to people who are aware & helpful.
- chiefalchemist 2y ago
  Then the Biden admin should have taken a couple grains of that $7.5B and communicated more of the details. I have a friend with an EV. Finding a charging station can be challenging. More than once I've heard, "Where are the charging stations Biden promised?" Yes, it might take time. But better comms would be wise. Sure that might delay EV adoption, but so releasing gas from the national stockpile to keep the price of gas down.
romafirst3 2y ago
Building physical things in the real world takes more than a couple of years. Think how long it takes to plan and build a regular building and these are buildings with insanely high energy requirements. This seems to be just partisan point scoring. Besides half the Republican Party is still advocating for coal and oil extraction, it’s a bit hypocritical to be complaining that EVs aren’t happening fast enough.
- rayiner 2y ago
  Don’t blame the messenger. Of course when a democratic president fails to execute on a policy, his political opponents are going to be the ones that point it out. That’s irrelevant. The point is that it should not take years to build out some goddamn EV chargers with $7.5 billion in funding. If it does, then we shouldn’t spending that money because there’s a more fundamental problem with the government’s ability to execute that needs to be fixed first. The reaction you expressed is exactly the wrong one for anyone who wants to see government build infrastructure, or do more in general. It would be a disaster for republicans if democrat-run governments could actually deliver on their promises and deliver cost-effective, efficient public services in transit, education, healthcare, etc. The defensive reflex that seeks to insulate government failures from accountability only helps republicans.
- ungreased0675 2y ago
  It doesn’t take years as a rule. Many, many complex physical builds are completed in far less time than “years.”
  - romafirst3 2y ago
    Are they permitted, funded and planned and built in less time than years? Not very many are. This a good thing, we don't want people cutting corners and building wherever they want. The downside is that we need to wait a little before we get what we want. I'm actually impressed that 7 have been fully constructed and opened in 2 years.
    - romafirst3 2y ago
willcipriano 2y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  This isn't a serious comparison. One project versus thousands in all fifty states?
  - willcipriano 2y ago
    7 in 50 states.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      No; that's the number that've completed the entire process. More are in active planning, construction, etc. In December it was 0 with the same $7.5B investment; https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-charger...
      - willcipriano 2y ago
        I'm planning to be a bodybuilder. I've had many expensive lunches on the topic with the best consultants. So that's basically the same thing as getting ripped, even though in real life I can at best bench 50 pounds. The platonic ideal in our minds is all that matters in our unserious world.
        ceejayoz 2y ago
        If I'm a real estate developer, and I invest $100M on 300 homes in a new subdivision, at some point I'm probably gonna be $90M in with very few completed homes to show for it.
        willcipriano 2y ago
        > probably But presently people are actually homeless and you have spent the last 2 years mostly talking about homes and not really building anything.
beefman 2y ago
Tesla opened ~ 2,500 supercharger stations over the same period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger#Deployment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger#Deployment
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Twelve years into deployment, and with their fourth version so far. > The first Superchargers in the world opened in 2012 in the United States. Six stations were deployed along Interstate 5 in California, enabling trips from Los Angeles, California and San Francisco, California and two stations deployed along Interstate 95, enabling trips between Boston, Massachusetts and Washington, DC. By mid-July 2013, 15 stations were open across the United States. So, a little more than seven - barely - in the first two years of the project, if you count the presumably non-zero time in advance of the first install for construction, permiting, etc.
  - beefman 2y ago
    Not sure what your point is. The type of stations being subsidized are broadly similar to, and if anything predate, Tesla's stations. There is nothing new to spin up. The reasons for the failure lie elsewhere.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      There's absolutely stuff to spin up on a project to install 50k chargers in 50 states. Among them, getting manufacturers to agree on a charging standard, which only happened very recently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standa... > From June 2023 through February 2024, automakers BMW Group, Fisker, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai Motor Group, Jaguar Land Rover, Lotus Cars, Lucid Motors, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Polestar, Rivian, Stellantis, Subaru, Toyota, Volvo Cars, and Volkswagen Group all announced that they would equip their electric vehicles sold in the North American market with NACS charge ports from the factory starting in 2025, with adapters available for existing vehicles. As of February 2024, Mitsubishi Motors is the only legacy automaker who has not announced that it will adopt NACS. I promise you, my decade of experience building websites helps me do it faster than a newbie using the same tools.
beefman 2y ago
https://archive.is/vJcoy https://archive.is/vJcoy

22 points by xqcgrek2 2y ago

A bit of a misleading headline; $7.5B was allocated. It hasn't been all used yet. It's not as if the next seven stations will cost another $7.5B. > Nigro says that the process — states have to submit plans to the Biden administration for approval, solicit bids on the work, and then award funds — has taken much of the first two years since the funding was approved. “I expect it to go much faster in 2024,” he added.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago
The Federal Highway Administration & White House only finished speccing out requirements in February 2023. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03... With due cause, in my opinion. It was hard work! This isn't just "how do we charge", but a much more comprehensive effort to make information on chargers available in real time. So people can see where chargers are, find working ones, pick where to go that will give them fast charging, and also give them a view to see over time which chargers tend to be reliable or not. There was a very smart effort to make sure enough open data would come from this initiative so that consumers can effectively use this infrastructure, and have faith in it, which seems to have been a bit of a missing link in the past with out-of-service and slow charging experiences degrading trust. This is also key to monitoring these chargers to make sure these folks remain qualified for their funding! Once standards were set, then folks have to design or update equipment to match. Data registries need to be setup to host these extensive APIs. We should expect this to take time. I am very on board here. The pace does not seem slow to me. There's a lot do complexity that had to go into building standards that would make sure this money is well used. That we haven't used billions of dollars in a year and change does not seem weird to me. It seems responsible, if we're trying to govern & help a complex ecosystem forward to benefit common welfare. This, to me, seems good. Outrage is easy, appreciating & helping the world is more complex. I'd love to see a world that can better curate & appreciate how complex things are, that can dig into the depth. A world of nuance leads to people who are aware & helpful.
chiefalchemist 2y ago
Then the Biden admin should have taken a couple grains of that $7.5B and communicated more of the details. I have a friend with an EV. Finding a charging station can be challenging. More than once I've heard, "Where are the charging stations Biden promised?" Yes, it might take time. But better comms would be wise. Sure that might delay EV adoption, but so releasing gas from the national stockpile to keep the price of gas down.

romafirst3 2y ago

Building physical things in the real world takes more than a couple of years. Think how long it takes to plan and build a regular building and these are buildings with insanely high energy requirements. This seems to be just partisan point scoring. Besides half the Republican Party is still advocating for coal and oil extraction, it’s a bit hypocritical to be complaining that EVs aren’t happening fast enough.

rayiner 2y ago
Don’t blame the messenger. Of course when a democratic president fails to execute on a policy, his political opponents are going to be the ones that point it out. That’s irrelevant. The point is that it should not take years to build out some goddamn EV chargers with $7.5 billion in funding. If it does, then we shouldn’t spending that money because there’s a more fundamental problem with the government’s ability to execute that needs to be fixed first. The reaction you expressed is exactly the wrong one for anyone who wants to see government build infrastructure, or do more in general. It would be a disaster for republicans if democrat-run governments could actually deliver on their promises and deliver cost-effective, efficient public services in transit, education, healthcare, etc. The defensive reflex that seeks to insulate government failures from accountability only helps republicans.
ungreased0675 2y ago
It doesn’t take years as a rule. Many, many complex physical builds are completed in far less time than “years.”
- romafirst3 2y ago
  Are they permitted, funded and planned and built in less time than years? Not very many are. This a good thing, we don't want people cutting corners and building wherever they want. The downside is that we need to wait a little before we get what we want. I'm actually impressed that 7 have been fully constructed and opened in 2 years.
  - romafirst3 2y ago

willcipriano 2y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 2y ago
This isn't a serious comparison. One project versus thousands in all fifty states?
- willcipriano 2y ago
  7 in 50 states.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    No; that's the number that've completed the entire process. More are in active planning, construction, etc. In December it was 0 with the same $7.5B investment; https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-charger...
    - willcipriano 2y ago
      I'm planning to be a bodybuilder. I've had many expensive lunches on the topic with the best consultants. So that's basically the same thing as getting ripped, even though in real life I can at best bench 50 pounds. The platonic ideal in our minds is all that matters in our unserious world.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        If I'm a real estate developer, and I invest $100M on 300 homes in a new subdivision, at some point I'm probably gonna be $90M in with very few completed homes to show for it.
        willcipriano 2y ago
        > probably But presently people are actually homeless and you have spent the last 2 years mostly talking about homes and not really building anything.

beefman 2y ago

Tesla opened ~ 2,500 supercharger stations over the same period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger#Deployment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger#Deployment

ceejayoz 2y ago
Twelve years into deployment, and with their fourth version so far. > The first Superchargers in the world opened in 2012 in the United States. Six stations were deployed along Interstate 5 in California, enabling trips from Los Angeles, California and San Francisco, California and two stations deployed along Interstate 95, enabling trips between Boston, Massachusetts and Washington, DC. By mid-July 2013, 15 stations were open across the United States. So, a little more than seven - barely - in the first two years of the project, if you count the presumably non-zero time in advance of the first install for construction, permiting, etc.
- beefman 2y ago
  Not sure what your point is. The type of stations being subsidized are broadly similar to, and if anything predate, Tesla's stations. There is nothing new to spin up. The reasons for the failure lie elsewhere.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    There's absolutely stuff to spin up on a project to install 50k chargers in 50 states. Among them, getting manufacturers to agree on a charging standard, which only happened very recently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Charging_Standa... > From June 2023 through February 2024, automakers BMW Group, Fisker, General Motors, Honda, Hyundai Motor Group, Jaguar Land Rover, Lotus Cars, Lucid Motors, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Polestar, Rivian, Stellantis, Subaru, Toyota, Volvo Cars, and Volkswagen Group all announced that they would equip their electric vehicles sold in the North American market with NACS charge ports from the factory starting in 2025, with adapters available for existing vehicles. As of February 2024, Mitsubishi Motors is the only legacy automaker who has not announced that it will adopt NACS. I promise you, my decade of experience building websites helps me do it faster than a newbie using the same tools.

beefman 2y ago

https://archive.is/vJcoy https://archive.is/vJcoy