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Interspecies communication is a massively underrated field. We've bridged human cultures in the past, which is easier because humans do similar (ish) things, w

by ralegh 2y ago

Interspecies communication is a massively underrated field. We've bridged human cultures in the past, which is easier because humans do similar (ish) things, we can use sight, touch, smell, etc to establish common ground. We can communicate simple things with pets, though in my experience they learn from body language and intonation, understanding grammar and language feels like a step further. What's the common ground with whales? Like how eskimos have 100 words for snow, whales could have thousands of phrases for water, currents, temperature, storms. Fish, migration of different species. A language of relative position needed for pack hunting. They might tell stories about El Niño, earthquakes, tsunamis. If they have social structure we may share ideas of relationships, friendship, giving (food), owing, sharing, helping, etc. We might be able to correlate their speech with weather patterns and animal sightings. We could probably start a two way communication, I wonder if us or them would have better forecasts for sea conditions. They could act as a network of hundreds of thousands of sensors. Sperm whales travel so far, that even without maps they might know the shape of the continents. Very excited for the future.

yosito 2y ago
I can understand why scientists, linguists, and whale enthusiasts might be interested in understanding whale communication. But I have a much harder time imagining that whales have much to say to humans other than, "Please kindly fuck off" in 99% of cases.
- circlefavshape 2y ago
  I think finding out what they're saying about (rather than to) us would be amazing
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  Dogs have a lot to say to humans. Most of it also applies to whales: "Feed me" "I'm hurt, help me" "I found the thing you wanted. How about a reward?" If you can solve the whale's problems, then it will have things to say to you.
  - yosito 2y ago
    Dogs have lived with humans for millennia. The majority of whale individuals can probably solve their own problems far better than humans can.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      It might be true that the filter feeder whales are better at feeding themselves than we are at feeding them. But probably not. For the predatory whales, it's definitely untrue. The reason dogs live with humans is that it's easier to have their problems solved by the humans than to do it themselves. That's why the phenomenon continues and why it began.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
asddubs 2y ago
From what I understand that 100 words for snow thing isn't really true, it's just that the language uses compound words like german, so it's just that an adjective + noun is rolled into one word (e.g. powder snow would also be pulverschnee in german, but it's really just the word for powder and snow without the space)
- yosito 2y ago
  Often people claim that Hungarian has over 50 words for "you" (https://dailymagyar.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/daily_magyar_2019_05_15-1.jpg https://dailymagyar.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05...) But even the concept of what is a "word" in Hungarian is complex. Words have so many different forms depending on the context. As a Hungarian speaker, I perceive three forms of you (te, ön, maga) and one ending that is added to other words to to form a second person form of the word (-d), but even that is a complete oversimplification. I don't think there is any reason why whale languages would have a concept of discreet words like we have in English.
  - hnbad 2y ago
    Fun fact: That is why linguists are more interested in spoken language than written language. Written languages are ultimately "amateur" attempts to codify spoken (natural) languages. Spoken language consists of utterances not letters, words or sentences. Analyzing language requires grouping sounds into compounds that serve specific functions or carry specific semantics but for spoken language the structure will be a lot fuzzier and more complex than for the simplified written language even if the author attempts to replicate spoken language in writing. Even phonemes don't tell the full story.
- ralegh 2y ago
  Phrases, then.
- pavlov 2y ago
  Ok, so let’s say there are ten qualifiers and ten base words for snow. That makes 100 compound words. It’s still substantially more snow-related vocabulary than in German, it seems to me.
IIAOPSW 2y ago
I like how you start out with "their experience is so alien how can we even expect to have words for their relevant concepts", and then proceed to list a bunch of words for their relevant concepts.

by ralegh 2y ago

yosito 2y ago

I can understand why scientists, linguists, and whale enthusiasts might be interested in understanding whale communication. But I have a much harder time imagining that whales have much to say to humans other than, "Please kindly fuck off" in 99% of cases.

circlefavshape 2y ago
I think finding out what they're saying about (rather than to) us would be amazing
thaumasiotes 2y ago
Dogs have a lot to say to humans. Most of it also applies to whales: "Feed me" "I'm hurt, help me" "I found the thing you wanted. How about a reward?" If you can solve the whale's problems, then it will have things to say to you.
- yosito 2y ago
  Dogs have lived with humans for millennia. The majority of whale individuals can probably solve their own problems far better than humans can.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    It might be true that the filter feeder whales are better at feeding themselves than we are at feeding them. But probably not. For the predatory whales, it's definitely untrue. The reason dogs live with humans is that it's easier to have their problems solved by the humans than to do it themselves. That's why the phenomenon continues and why it began.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

asddubs 2y ago

From what I understand that 100 words for snow thing isn't really true, it's just that the language uses compound words like german, so it's just that an adjective + noun is rolled into one word (e.g. powder snow would also be pulverschnee in german, but it's really just the word for powder and snow without the space)

yosito 2y ago
Often people claim that Hungarian has over 50 words for "you" (https://dailymagyar.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/daily_magyar_2019_05_15-1.jpg https://dailymagyar.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05...) But even the concept of what is a "word" in Hungarian is complex. Words have so many different forms depending on the context. As a Hungarian speaker, I perceive three forms of you (te, ön, maga) and one ending that is added to other words to to form a second person form of the word (-d), but even that is a complete oversimplification. I don't think there is any reason why whale languages would have a concept of discreet words like we have in English.
- hnbad 2y ago
  Fun fact: That is why linguists are more interested in spoken language than written language. Written languages are ultimately "amateur" attempts to codify spoken (natural) languages. Spoken language consists of utterances not letters, words or sentences. Analyzing language requires grouping sounds into compounds that serve specific functions or carry specific semantics but for spoken language the structure will be a lot fuzzier and more complex than for the simplified written language even if the author attempts to replicate spoken language in writing. Even phonemes don't tell the full story.
ralegh 2y ago
Phrases, then.
pavlov 2y ago
Ok, so let’s say there are ten qualifiers and ten base words for snow. That makes 100 compound words. It’s still substantially more snow-related vocabulary than in German, it seems to me.

IIAOPSW 2y ago

I like how you start out with "their experience is so alien how can we even expect to have words for their relevant concepts", and then proceed to list a bunch of words for their relevant concepts.