4 ms·

> For example, try arguing that the USA should try to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine. The US did try to find a diplomatic solution. Befo

by jemmyw 2y ago

> For example, try arguing that the USA should try to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine. The US did try to find a diplomatic solution. Before the war we saw Biden talking about talking with Putin extensively. Since then we've heard about attempted negotiations by US diplomats, and I would expect those went deeper and longer than we get to hear about too. I think the push back is the idea the the US should negotiate something with Russia that ignores the position of Ukraine and her people. And also I'm sure that a lot of us really don't like the idea of invasion being rewarded with territorial negotiation because we don't want our own countries put into that position, or have the threat hanging over us.

brabel 2y ago
> I'm sure that a lot of us really don't like the idea of invasion being rewarded with territorial negotiation I don't like that either, but we have to deal with the world we're living in. Almost every conflict in history ends up with territory changing hands. If you're the weaker side, you need to do everything possible to avoid direct conflict. You say US diplomats tried to find a diplomatic solution , but that's such a one-sided view. Do you think the other side didn't try at all? Do you believe that the Russians are bloodthirsty and looking for war no matter what? We need to stop looking at other countries like Russia, China, and even India, Brazil, Iran etc. as if they're ignorant, warring nations whose only concern is to cause trouble in the world. I would call this view childish, but because a lot of serious people seem to hold this cartoonish point-of-view, I need to use another term, I suppose... perhaps victim-attitude? It's always the others who are causing trouble trying to make our lives hell, it's never our fault, it's never us who are the problem?! America is involved in almost every conflict in the world right now, not just Ukraine and Israel, there are dozens more! Maybe it's not everyone else who is wrong?
- ajuc 2y ago
  > Do you believe that the Russians are bloodthirsty and looking for war no matter what? You don't need to ask. Putin issued a letter in 2021 demanding NATO accept that Eastern Europe moves back into Russian sphere of influence. Including Baltic countries, my country - Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia, Czechia, Romania, etc. Over 100 million people in total sold to a dictatorship just like that. Against our will, of course, but you prefer not to look too closely into that, right? All the understanding for Iranian and Russian government, no empathy for the countries sold to them :) This is what Russia will do if you let them. Not because Russians are bloodthirsty, but because Russia is a totalitarian imperialist state that can do it without consequences for the ruling elite. The cheapest and least bloody way to stop it is to stop it now in Ukraine. If we don't - we will have to stop it in Ukraine the 3rd time Russia invades. Or the 4th, if it takes 4 times. Or when Russia goes for Baltic states. It won't get better until we stop it.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  > Do you believe that the Russians are bloodthirsty and looking for war no matter what? The Russian people? No. The Russian leadership? Utter disregard for human life on either side to achieve their shifting goals. > Maybe it's not everyone else who is wrong? Or maybe these countries are trying to challenge and weaken a global system supported by US influence. I'm not American, I didn't support Americas wars in the middle east, I recognise it is not often a power for good. But if I reject that invasion then I reject this invasion by Russia. > I don't like that either, but we have to deal with the world we're living in You've accused me of having a childish outlook but your view seems childish to me. What would a negotiated settlement look like that's acceptable to Russia do you think? It certainly wouldn't be one that is acceptable to Ukraine, and unlikely to Poland et al, and so if the US signed off and withdrew support the fighting would continue. At some point the war will end in a settlement of some kind. At the moment the position of everyone involved is too wide for that to happen and the US is not the only party.

by jemmyw 2y ago

brabel 2y ago

> I'm sure that a lot of us really don't like the idea of invasion being rewarded with territorial negotiation I don't like that either, but we have to deal with the world we're living in. Almost every conflict in history ends up with territory changing hands. If you're the weaker side, you need to do everything possible to avoid direct conflict. You say US diplomats tried to find a diplomatic solution , but that's such a one-sided view. Do you think the other side didn't try at all? Do you believe that the Russians are bloodthirsty and looking for war no matter what? We need to stop looking at other countries like Russia, China, and even India, Brazil, Iran etc. as if they're ignorant, warring nations whose only concern is to cause trouble in the world. I would call this view childish, but because a lot of serious people seem to hold this cartoonish point-of-view, I need to use another term, I suppose... perhaps victim-attitude? It's always the others who are causing trouble trying to make our lives hell, it's never our fault, it's never us who are the problem?! America is involved in almost every conflict in the world right now, not just Ukraine and Israel, there are dozens more! Maybe it's not everyone else who is wrong?

ajuc 2y ago
> Do you believe that the Russians are bloodthirsty and looking for war no matter what? You don't need to ask. Putin issued a letter in 2021 demanding NATO accept that Eastern Europe moves back into Russian sphere of influence. Including Baltic countries, my country - Poland, Ukraine, Slovakia, Czechia, Romania, etc. Over 100 million people in total sold to a dictatorship just like that. Against our will, of course, but you prefer not to look too closely into that, right? All the understanding for Iranian and Russian government, no empathy for the countries sold to them :) This is what Russia will do if you let them. Not because Russians are bloodthirsty, but because Russia is a totalitarian imperialist state that can do it without consequences for the ruling elite. The cheapest and least bloody way to stop it is to stop it now in Ukraine. If we don't - we will have to stop it in Ukraine the 3rd time Russia invades. Or the 4th, if it takes 4 times. Or when Russia goes for Baltic states. It won't get better until we stop it.
jemmyw 2y ago
> Do you believe that the Russians are bloodthirsty and looking for war no matter what? The Russian people? No. The Russian leadership? Utter disregard for human life on either side to achieve their shifting goals. > Maybe it's not everyone else who is wrong? Or maybe these countries are trying to challenge and weaken a global system supported by US influence. I'm not American, I didn't support Americas wars in the middle east, I recognise it is not often a power for good. But if I reject that invasion then I reject this invasion by Russia. > I don't like that either, but we have to deal with the world we're living in You've accused me of having a childish outlook but your view seems childish to me. What would a negotiated settlement look like that's acceptable to Russia do you think? It certainly wouldn't be one that is acceptable to Ukraine, and unlikely to Poland et al, and so if the US signed off and withdrew support the fighting would continue. At some point the war will end in a settlement of some kind. At the moment the position of everyone involved is too wide for that to happen and the US is not the only party.