9 ms·

I have a friend like that. He has M.A. in computer science, is pretty smart overall, but believes all the dumbest conspiracy theories, including the contrails o

by ajuc 2y ago

I have a friend like that. He has M.A. in computer science, is pretty smart overall, but believes all the dumbest conspiracy theories, including the contrails one. It's fascinating and scary at the same time. It's what happens when you do motivated thinking for decades. He believes in all the alt-right crap about "gender ideology", "fake climate change", "fake pandemic", etc. He just completely ignores any data that contradicts what he thinks. In middle school he "just" disliked gays and was pretty normal overall. Now there's no subject on which you can talk with him without some batshit insane views. A big part of this is splinters of American culture war that spreads over the rest of the world as a side-effect. I can understand why some people in US think cancel culture and wokeness went too far. But then you have people repeating the same "antiwoke" alt-right points imported from USA in countries where you go to jail for criticizing Catholic Church and president together with main bishop go on anti-gay hate campaigns on state TV. And somehow it's still the alt-right that fights for "free speech", when they have no problem with "go to jail for blasphemy" laws. Once you buy into this culture war and decide you're on one side - you interpret all new data accordingly. So you cannot believe in climate change, cause that's what leftists do. So if you see climate change - it's because NWO causes it with contrails. Trump is your guy cause he hates gays. So if he does things that benefit Russia - it's his brilliant plan to deal with Putin that you simply can't understand yet. Always add more hidden variables that make your worldview consistent.

namaria 2y ago
> in countries where you go to jail for criticizing Catholic Church I'm yet to hear of such a country. Aren't you thinking of lese majesté laws that some countries like Spain and the Netherlands have?
- pineaux 2y ago
  No-one in at least a century has been sent to jail for criticizing the church in holland; and especially not the Catholic church.
  - namaria 2y ago
    Lese majeste laws have nothing to do with religion
- ajuc 2y ago
  "Insulting the religious feelings" is the phrasing here in Poland. It's almost exclusively prosecuted when the hurt feelings are on the side of the vast majority = Catholics. There's about 50 people sentenced per year. My point wasn't that, my point was that people supporing these consider themselves "fighting for free speech" because they want to be able to insult minorities.
  - namaria 2y ago
    Couldn't find a single instance of someone being jailed under this law
- gpderetta 2y ago
  Italy still has blasphemy laws; although it has been decriminalized, you can still get an administrative fine. It also still has lese majesté laws.
  - namaria 2y ago
    Fines are not jailing.
- sndean 2y ago
  You can search for blasphemy laws here [0]. I just looked for countries that are predominantly Catholic. Only obvious one where this may be currently enforced is El Salvador? Though I can't quickly find any recent examples, so maybe that's not true. And places like Monaco still haven't repealed those laws. Edit: also Poland – from a sibling comment. [0] https://end-blasphemy-laws.org/countries/ https://end-blasphemy-laws.org/countries/
  - namaria 2y ago
    While this website claims several countries have statutes that allow incarceration under blasphemy convictions, I couldn't find a single instance of a person being jailed in the past few decades under any of them.
    - sndean 2y ago
      Yes, restricting scope to jailing for criticizing the Catholic Church, I only see suspended sentences and fines in places like Poland. Expanding to other religions, there are people currently in prison for Quran burning, and religious prisoners in NATO countries (Turkey).
      - namaria 2y ago
        Ah so if we are talking about what I was talking about yes but at the same time there are things I wasn't talking about that are different. Noted.
pineaux 2y ago
I dont think conspiracy theories are for dumb people. I think its mostly for people that dont feel understood. They see the world is telling them a narrative but despite this narrative, they have no great job, no great life partner or no great status in their community, they feel there must be something that is preventing them from getting these things. They go in search of an explanation and find it. They get hooked on the simplicity of these narratives and find them so satisfying.
- ajuc 2y ago
  > they have no great job, no great life partner or no great status in their community, they feel there must be something that is preventing them from getting these things My friend works in IT and earns probably in the 99th or 98th percentile in the country. It's not that. In fact I don't think economic wellbeing is related at all. Poland has been doing great economically for the last 30 years, and yet the conspiracy theories are spreading. I mostly blame social media. Previously if you wanted to know how the climate works you looked it up in encyclopedia, watched some TV or asked a teacher. They mostly weren't spreading bullshit. Now you search internet and there's so much bullshit confirming all your wrong ideas you can spend weeks reading just that.
  - StefanBatory 2y ago
    PiS state media absolutely destroyed my grandpa. In the recent years, he went from being someone whom you could talk to to someone that only speaks about how Tusk is devil and so on.
  - whstl 2y ago
    I used to live in Brazil, and I saw a similar situation: a significant chunk of very intelligent and competent, high-earning, IT workers were very much into those theories. I also know a huge amount of conspiracy theory believers in the medical area. Also otherwise competent. If anything, the correlation with loneliness or low status was reverse: the richer and high-status, the more blatant and visible those beliefs were. People in low-prestige professions, or poor? It was very rare to see them talk about it.
- 2y ago
brabel 2y ago
[flagged]
- mopsi 2y ago
  > For example, try arguing that the USA should try to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine. You'll be immediately accused of being a "Putin puppet" when all you care about is that the war is ended with as few casualties as possible (as some say, winning the peace is more important than winning the war). You will fall under criticism for saying this because it is indeed ignorant and naive and will only kill more people. Peace at any cost will only give Russia a chance to focus on repressing internal dissent in occupied territories and murder people until they have no meaningful opposition left there. After that, they can renew their attack on Ukraine and widen it to the rest of Europe, forcibly conscripting people from occupied territories to fight for them. This already happened after the 2014 invasion. How many times do you want to repeat the mistake before learning from it? In this round, about half a million are dead and many Ukrainian cities look no different from Hiroshima and Nagasaki after nuclear bombing. How many people more will have to die? 10 million? Insisting on peace at any cost is purely emotional feel-good response that ignores the realities on the ground. Much of the discussion about Palestine and other hot topics is the same; uneducated virtue signaling fueled by social media narcissism.
  - brabel 2y ago
    You call me ignorant, but you seem to have very little understanding at all. You say it will only kill more people. That's patently false. There's never been a peace settlement that ended up killing more people than war, because war kills people every single day. Ukraine losing some territory is NOT the end of the world, and I am not sure why some people are so convinced that it is. > After that, they can renew their attack on Ukraine and widen it to the rest of Europe There's literally no evidence that's the case, this is fear-mongering on a scale I've never seen before. To the contrary, the reaction of the world to this conflict has already made enough of an impression on any would-be invader that it's a really bad idea to enter a conflict where the West is on the opposing side, and I am very convinced that Putin won't try his hand again. Of course, I cannot prove that to you, but you can't prove anything either, you're using the same "emotional" argument you've accused me of using. Your argument goes down to "we must continue killing people in a war to prove a point". I find that argument abhorrent. > How many people more will have to die? 10 million? If you stop the war right now, zero. You're claiming a hypothetical future made up in your head where Russia will still continue attacking others. At least try to consider that that may not happen? Consider that Russia knows very well it will suffer for decades from mistrust by the West, by sanctions and by losing a huge market. It knows all that, why would it want to make things even worse? This argument by some of the Western media just doesn't make sense, try to think about it rationally! > Insisting on peace at any cost is purely emotional feel-good response This is always the same argument used most war-mongering people in history, it's the cause of the death of millions because every war in history started because of someone holding that view. We need to go back to a civilized dialog between nations. You can claim that Putin is the one who broke the peace, and I agree with that, but just trying to continue a big war to make him pay for that mistake seems pitty. In my opinion, fighting any war for any reason is not what a civilized mind would do. There are cases it's unavoidable, but this is NOT one of those. It's avoidable, Putin is open to dialog, don't believe the narrative you've been told. There is room for dialog, the war was almost ended with the peace talks in Belarus... have you forgotten that? Do you know why that didn't stop the war?? Read about it, it was NOT because of Russia.
childintime 2y ago
I'm curious: did he used to have a talent for humor too? What was once used to create a laugh, the absurdness of tangents and conspiracies, is now serious because it's attributed to a virtualized antagonist, who is manipulating our lives and making fun of it, by exploiting collective behavior, pulling the strings. It's us that do not see we are manipulated, and that we are propelled to invest towards what's not in our own interest, taking them for a ride to an unwanted future. They must feel their control over their own lives is being taken away. Perhaps like the jews knowingly went to the slaughter, and they could not be convinced to revolt themselves and fight for their life?
- ajuc 2y ago
  If you mean that he used the conspiracy theories to sound funny and edgy - maybe? Hard to tell what he believed when we were in middle school and what he just said for lolz. Now he does believe in all that shit. The latter part of your comment was hard to parse for me, I can only say that some Jews did revolt (for example in Warsaw Ghetto). But I'm not sure what was your point with this analogy.

by ajuc 2y ago

namaria 2y ago

> in countries where you go to jail for criticizing Catholic Church I'm yet to hear of such a country. Aren't you thinking of lese majesté laws that some countries like Spain and the Netherlands have?

pineaux 2y ago
No-one in at least a century has been sent to jail for criticizing the church in holland; and especially not the Catholic church.
- namaria 2y ago
  Lese majeste laws have nothing to do with religion
ajuc 2y ago
"Insulting the religious feelings" is the phrasing here in Poland. It's almost exclusively prosecuted when the hurt feelings are on the side of the vast majority = Catholics. There's about 50 people sentenced per year. My point wasn't that, my point was that people supporing these consider themselves "fighting for free speech" because they want to be able to insult minorities.
- namaria 2y ago
  Couldn't find a single instance of someone being jailed under this law
gpderetta 2y ago
Italy still has blasphemy laws; although it has been decriminalized, you can still get an administrative fine. It also still has lese majesté laws.
- namaria 2y ago
  Fines are not jailing.
sndean 2y ago
You can search for blasphemy laws here [0]. I just looked for countries that are predominantly Catholic. Only obvious one where this may be currently enforced is El Salvador? Though I can't quickly find any recent examples, so maybe that's not true. And places like Monaco still haven't repealed those laws. Edit: also Poland – from a sibling comment. [0] https://end-blasphemy-laws.org/countries/ https://end-blasphemy-laws.org/countries/
- namaria 2y ago
  While this website claims several countries have statutes that allow incarceration under blasphemy convictions, I couldn't find a single instance of a person being jailed in the past few decades under any of them.
  - sndean 2y ago
    Yes, restricting scope to jailing for criticizing the Catholic Church, I only see suspended sentences and fines in places like Poland. Expanding to other religions, there are people currently in prison for Quran burning, and religious prisoners in NATO countries (Turkey).
    - namaria 2y ago
      Ah so if we are talking about what I was talking about yes but at the same time there are things I wasn't talking about that are different. Noted.

pineaux 2y ago

I dont think conspiracy theories are for dumb people. I think its mostly for people that dont feel understood. They see the world is telling them a narrative but despite this narrative, they have no great job, no great life partner or no great status in their community, they feel there must be something that is preventing them from getting these things. They go in search of an explanation and find it. They get hooked on the simplicity of these narratives and find them so satisfying.

ajuc 2y ago
> they have no great job, no great life partner or no great status in their community, they feel there must be something that is preventing them from getting these things My friend works in IT and earns probably in the 99th or 98th percentile in the country. It's not that. In fact I don't think economic wellbeing is related at all. Poland has been doing great economically for the last 30 years, and yet the conspiracy theories are spreading. I mostly blame social media. Previously if you wanted to know how the climate works you looked it up in encyclopedia, watched some TV or asked a teacher. They mostly weren't spreading bullshit. Now you search internet and there's so much bullshit confirming all your wrong ideas you can spend weeks reading just that.
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  PiS state media absolutely destroyed my grandpa. In the recent years, he went from being someone whom you could talk to to someone that only speaks about how Tusk is devil and so on.
- whstl 2y ago
  I used to live in Brazil, and I saw a similar situation: a significant chunk of very intelligent and competent, high-earning, IT workers were very much into those theories. I also know a huge amount of conspiracy theory believers in the medical area. Also otherwise competent. If anything, the correlation with loneliness or low status was reverse: the richer and high-status, the more blatant and visible those beliefs were. People in low-prestige professions, or poor? It was very rare to see them talk about it.
2y ago

brabel 2y ago

[flagged]

mopsi 2y ago
> For example, try arguing that the USA should try to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine. You'll be immediately accused of being a "Putin puppet" when all you care about is that the war is ended with as few casualties as possible (as some say, winning the peace is more important than winning the war). You will fall under criticism for saying this because it is indeed ignorant and naive and will only kill more people. Peace at any cost will only give Russia a chance to focus on repressing internal dissent in occupied territories and murder people until they have no meaningful opposition left there. After that, they can renew their attack on Ukraine and widen it to the rest of Europe, forcibly conscripting people from occupied territories to fight for them. This already happened after the 2014 invasion. How many times do you want to repeat the mistake before learning from it? In this round, about half a million are dead and many Ukrainian cities look no different from Hiroshima and Nagasaki after nuclear bombing. How many people more will have to die? 10 million? Insisting on peace at any cost is purely emotional feel-good response that ignores the realities on the ground. Much of the discussion about Palestine and other hot topics is the same; uneducated virtue signaling fueled by social media narcissism.
- brabel 2y ago
  You call me ignorant, but you seem to have very little understanding at all. You say it will only kill more people. That's patently false. There's never been a peace settlement that ended up killing more people than war, because war kills people every single day. Ukraine losing some territory is NOT the end of the world, and I am not sure why some people are so convinced that it is. > After that, they can renew their attack on Ukraine and widen it to the rest of Europe There's literally no evidence that's the case, this is fear-mongering on a scale I've never seen before. To the contrary, the reaction of the world to this conflict has already made enough of an impression on any would-be invader that it's a really bad idea to enter a conflict where the West is on the opposing side, and I am very convinced that Putin won't try his hand again. Of course, I cannot prove that to you, but you can't prove anything either, you're using the same "emotional" argument you've accused me of using. Your argument goes down to "we must continue killing people in a war to prove a point". I find that argument abhorrent. > How many people more will have to die? 10 million? If you stop the war right now, zero. You're claiming a hypothetical future made up in your head where Russia will still continue attacking others. At least try to consider that that may not happen? Consider that Russia knows very well it will suffer for decades from mistrust by the West, by sanctions and by losing a huge market. It knows all that, why would it want to make things even worse? This argument by some of the Western media just doesn't make sense, try to think about it rationally! > Insisting on peace at any cost is purely emotional feel-good response This is always the same argument used most war-mongering people in history, it's the cause of the death of millions because every war in history started because of someone holding that view. We need to go back to a civilized dialog between nations. You can claim that Putin is the one who broke the peace, and I agree with that, but just trying to continue a big war to make him pay for that mistake seems pitty. In my opinion, fighting any war for any reason is not what a civilized mind would do. There are cases it's unavoidable, but this is NOT one of those. It's avoidable, Putin is open to dialog, don't believe the narrative you've been told. There is room for dialog, the war was almost ended with the peace talks in Belarus... have you forgotten that? Do you know why that didn't stop the war?? Read about it, it was NOT because of Russia.

childintime 2y ago

I'm curious: did he used to have a talent for humor too? What was once used to create a laugh, the absurdness of tangents and conspiracies, is now serious because it's attributed to a virtualized antagonist, who is manipulating our lives and making fun of it, by exploiting collective behavior, pulling the strings. It's us that do not see we are manipulated, and that we are propelled to invest towards what's not in our own interest, taking them for a ride to an unwanted future. They must feel their control over their own lives is being taken away. Perhaps like the jews knowingly went to the slaughter, and they could not be convinced to revolt themselves and fight for their life?

ajuc 2y ago
If you mean that he used the conspiracy theories to sound funny and edgy - maybe? Hard to tell what he believed when we were in middle school and what he just said for lolz. Now he does believe in all that shit. The latter part of your comment was hard to parse for me, I can only say that some Jews did revolt (for example in Warsaw Ghetto). But I'm not sure what was your point with this analogy.