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Simple question which I asked before- if you accuse Israel of genocide, why is the IDF not dropping bombs on Ramallah? One would think that if the goal were gen

by dakom 2y ago

Simple question which I asked before- if you accuse Israel of genocide, why is the IDF not dropping bombs on Ramallah? One would think that if the goal were genocide, Israel wouldn't discriminate between the PA and Hamas, right?

runarberg 2y ago
Simple answer: a) Raids in the West Bank are numerous and increasing, including a few in December where the IDF seized a bunch of money from exchange shops[1] (I don’t know why they did that), and a very big one in March where they killed a 16 year old child[2]. b) Palestinians in Gaza is a group (or peoples), and as such subject to Genocide on their own. One does not need to target every Palestinians for it to count as genocide. Bosniaks in Srebrenica was a group which was targeted during the Bosnian Genocide. The Srbska army did not need to target every Muslim Bosniak for it to constitute genocide. 1: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/28/unparalleled-israeli-army-raids-ramallah-more-occupied-west-bank-cities https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/28/unparalleled-israe... 2: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-carries-out-biggest-ramallah-raid-years-witnesses-say-2024-03-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-carries-out...
- dakom 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - runarberg 2y ago
    That is what genocide means [1]. > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > (a) Killing members of the group; > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Israel has (a) killed members of the group, (b) caused serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, and (c) deliberately inflicted on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, by e.g. destroyed hospitals, cultural centers, whole neighborhoods etc. preventing food and fuel from reaching Gaza, thus causing a famine, etc. And Israeli officials have made statements and actions to reflect that statements which makes it reasonable to infer that they are doing this with the intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a group. The according to the definition of genocide, and according to past convictions for the crime of genocide, targeting every member of a group is not a necessary condition for genocide. Finally, regarding the Ramallah raids, in very few places does throwing Molotove coctails at law enforcement in protective armor get you killed. Palestinians are one of very few groups who get killed for this relatively harmless—though violent—crime. Almost every other group, would get arrested and maybe a felony charge with a very minor prison sentence at worst. That said, I don’t believe Israel is committing a genocide against Palestinians in the West Bank. That is a crime which Gazans are the sole victims of. [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_...
    - dakom 2y ago
      Re: genocide. None of those criteria fit when talking about Palestinians in the West Bank (or Gaza before the war, but let's put that aside for now). The Palestinian population has increased in Israel, they are free to roam, reproduce, etc. As I have said previously, one merely has to drive 15 minutes outside of Jerusalem to witness this. For anyone living in the Dead Sea area, as I did for over 3 years, it's _routine_ to see Palestinians existing just fine with none of the criteria for genocide at all. That's a fact, jack. So.. what you're really saying is Israel is commiting "genocide" against Hamas. Wow. Alert the press. It's a war, initiated by Hamas and every terrorist attack they've been doing, not just Oct 7th. You're damn right Israel has a goal of wiping out every single one of those psychotic terrorists, and the world should be thanking us. Instead, we're forced to try and distinguish Hamas from the civilians they use as human shields, and international anti-semetism that is hell-bent on getting the facts completely wrong. I am not saying the IDF is free of mistakes, but by and large it goes to extreme lengths to protect normal Palestinians. What army on earth gives their enemy advance warning before attacking? The ratio of combatants to civilians is damn near miraculous in the current fighting conditions. It's really impossible to mistake this for attempted genocide if you're honest. Re: Molotov cocktail Have you ever had one thrown at you personally? I have. It's no joke and it is absolutely 100% a lethal weapon. You can't attack a solider with a lethal weapon and not expect them to attack back. I don't care what the stats are, it should be expected every time.
      - runarberg 2y ago
        At the end of my post, I specifically said: > I don’t believe Israel is committing a genocide against Palestinians in the West Bank. And any charges of Genocide against Palestinians in Gaza is for conduct after oct 7. > What army on earth gives their enemy advance warning before attacking? I don’t know, probably most. But that is no excuse for a genocide. There is no exemptions for international humanitarian laws if you issue a warning before committing the crime. > You can't attack a solider with a lethal weapon and not expect them to attack back. Molotov cocktails are lethal the same way tear gas is lethal. Against a soldier in full riot gear, it is hardly lethal at all. But in fact, I would expect most solders not to kill a teenager throwing a Molotov at them. If a kid throws a Molotov cocktail at a soldier and that soldier reacted by killing that teenager, I would expect that soldier to be charged for a crime and go to prison for killing a non-combatant.

by dakom 2y ago

runarberg 2y ago

Simple answer: a) Raids in the West Bank are numerous and increasing, including a few in December where the IDF seized a bunch of money from exchange shops[1] (I don’t know why they did that), and a very big one in March where they killed a 16 year old child[2]. b) Palestinians in Gaza is a group (or peoples), and as such subject to Genocide on their own. One does not need to target every Palestinians for it to count as genocide. Bosniaks in Srebrenica was a group which was targeted during the Bosnian Genocide. The Srbska army did not need to target every Muslim Bosniak for it to constitute genocide. 1: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/28/unparalleled-israeli-army-raids-ramallah-more-occupied-west-bank-cities https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/28/unparalleled-israe... 2: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-carries-out-biggest-ramallah-raid-years-witnesses-say-2024-03-04/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-carries-out...

dakom 2y ago
[flagged]
- runarberg 2y ago
  That is what genocide means [1]. > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: > (a) Killing members of the group; > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Israel has (a) killed members of the group, (b) caused serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, and (c) deliberately inflicted on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction, by e.g. destroyed hospitals, cultural centers, whole neighborhoods etc. preventing food and fuel from reaching Gaza, thus causing a famine, etc. And Israeli officials have made statements and actions to reflect that statements which makes it reasonable to infer that they are doing this with the intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a group. The according to the definition of genocide, and according to past convictions for the crime of genocide, targeting every member of a group is not a necessary condition for genocide. Finally, regarding the Ramallah raids, in very few places does throwing Molotove coctails at law enforcement in protective armor get you killed. Palestinians are one of very few groups who get killed for this relatively harmless—though violent—crime. Almost every other group, would get arrested and maybe a felony charge with a very minor prison sentence at worst. That said, I don’t believe Israel is committing a genocide against Palestinians in the West Bank. That is a crime which Gazans are the sole victims of. [1]: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_...
  - dakom 2y ago
    Re: genocide. None of those criteria fit when talking about Palestinians in the West Bank (or Gaza before the war, but let's put that aside for now). The Palestinian population has increased in Israel, they are free to roam, reproduce, etc. As I have said previously, one merely has to drive 15 minutes outside of Jerusalem to witness this. For anyone living in the Dead Sea area, as I did for over 3 years, it's _routine_ to see Palestinians existing just fine with none of the criteria for genocide at all. That's a fact, jack. So.. what you're really saying is Israel is commiting "genocide" against Hamas. Wow. Alert the press. It's a war, initiated by Hamas and every terrorist attack they've been doing, not just Oct 7th. You're damn right Israel has a goal of wiping out every single one of those psychotic terrorists, and the world should be thanking us. Instead, we're forced to try and distinguish Hamas from the civilians they use as human shields, and international anti-semetism that is hell-bent on getting the facts completely wrong. I am not saying the IDF is free of mistakes, but by and large it goes to extreme lengths to protect normal Palestinians. What army on earth gives their enemy advance warning before attacking? The ratio of combatants to civilians is damn near miraculous in the current fighting conditions. It's really impossible to mistake this for attempted genocide if you're honest. Re: Molotov cocktail Have you ever had one thrown at you personally? I have. It's no joke and it is absolutely 100% a lethal weapon. You can't attack a solider with a lethal weapon and not expect them to attack back. I don't care what the stats are, it should be expected every time.
    - runarberg 2y ago
      At the end of my post, I specifically said: > I don’t believe Israel is committing a genocide against Palestinians in the West Bank. And any charges of Genocide against Palestinians in Gaza is for conduct after oct 7. > What army on earth gives their enemy advance warning before attacking? I don’t know, probably most. But that is no excuse for a genocide. There is no exemptions for international humanitarian laws if you issue a warning before committing the crime. > You can't attack a solider with a lethal weapon and not expect them to attack back. Molotov cocktails are lethal the same way tear gas is lethal. Against a soldier in full riot gear, it is hardly lethal at all. But in fact, I would expect most solders not to kill a teenager throwing a Molotov at them. If a kid throws a Molotov cocktail at a soldier and that soldier reacted by killing that teenager, I would expect that soldier to be charged for a crime and go to prison for killing a non-combatant.