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There are more details here on why the activists oppose the action [1]. > They cited the protection of water resources as their primary concern. > Part of the

There are more details here on why the activists oppose the action [1]. > They cited the protection of water resources as their primary concern. > Part of the Tesla site is located in a so-called ‘drinking water protection area.’ > The company's expansion plans for the car factory were rejected by the majority of the citizens of Grünheide. Almost two-thirds voted against the plans last week. > The vote is not legally binding, but is considered an important milestone. [1] https://www.thelocal.de/20240229/why-are-activists-building-treehouses-to-block-teslas-expansion-plans-in-germany https://www.thelocal.de/20240229/why-are-activists-building-...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
German environmentalism is NIMBY with extra steps.
- consumer451 2y ago
  I am not jumping into any side of the argument here, but it is worth noting that the area of "my back yard" is much smaller, and more densely packed in European countries, as compared to the seemingly endless land of the USA.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the area of the "my back yard" is much smaller, and more densely packed in European countries Germany is the 65th most densely-populated country in the world, behind the U.K., Japan, the Netherlands, Taiwan and Singapore [1]. It is not too dense for industry, that’s literally just thinly-veiled NIMBYism. My point is a realistic solution is never offered. Should Tesla not expand in favour of ICE production? Is the solution to deindustrialise Germany and put all the plants in Eastern Europe? It’s a short-term fixation on nearby problems without regards for global impact, and it’s characteristic of the German greens. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
    - EA-3167 2y ago
      > Sure, but the point is where would they prefer Tesla expand? Tesla is not some necessity, it doesn't have to expand, this isn't like rejecting housing or new sanitation facilities.
      - adolph 2y ago
        Oh, protecting local established manufacturers. That makes sense.
        EA-3167 2y ago
        Why not? It's also not like this is a foreign established manufacturer like Toyota, it's an Elon Musk joint, I can't think of many less trustworthy businessmen off the top of my head. I think they have every reason to doubt any promises Tesla makes, and doubt its future as well.
        exe34 2y ago
        Don't accept promises, get written contracts with expensive penalty clauses.
        EA-3167 2y ago
        That's a good idea, but never seems to happen; certainly it didn't in this case. Even when it does, the penalties are inevitably a fraction of the realized profits.
    - Mechanical9 2y ago
      Why is it always Tesla vs. ICE? Seems like a false dichotomy.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Why is it always Tesla vs. ICE? Seems like a false dichotomy Tesla is the largest EV-only manufacturer in Germany, and is the second-largest seller of EVs in the country [1]. (Also, unless there is a record of Tesla factories being unusually dirty, the protesters are protesting expanding EV production in general. That it’s owned by Tesla seems irrelevant, another manufacturer would raise the same stated concerns.) [1] https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/2023-full-year-germany-best-selling-electric-cars-by-brand-and-model/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/2023-full-year-ger...
- HideousKojima 2y ago
  And unless you're pushing for anarchoprimitivism or the like, the factories building your environmentally friendly electric cars are going to have to be built somewhere. I'm reminded of an experience in high school near San Diego, where tons of people were opposed to a new (solar!) power plant out in the desert to the east and they were opposed to the high voltage power lines that would have brought power from this plant into the city. I'm sure there were other, less unhinged reasons to oppose it but the most vocal were the environmentalists opposing it because the transmission lines would interfere with some desert tortoise species habitat. Environmentalists protesting solar power is one of those hilarities that the universe just plops right on your lap sometimes.
  - Gibbon1 2y ago
    I know of some owners of mini McMansions on 1-2 acre desert lots are up in arms about a 100MW solar plant being built nearby. I think they're pick any/all, old people that are fearful and hate change, OCD spectrum disorder types, and people that have transferred their well justified fear that the next brush fire will burn their houses down to the solar plant. Notable that last one where people transfer anxiety about one thing to another thing is really common.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    "Environmentally friendly" is not a binary description. Electric cars may be more environmentally friendly than petroleum cars, but less environmentally friendly than a bicycle or electric bus. Calling for more mass transit, better support for cycling, and a de-emphasis on personal automobile transport is not anarchoprimitivism.
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  Engineer I know that worked for a sterilization company said it was impossible to build a plant in Germany. Because there are three factions, businesses, labor, and greens. Business was mostly supportive. Labor wouldn't help because the factories employ like 20 people. And greens oppose because 'chemicals' To do anything you need 2 of 3 and you only would get a half hearted, a neutral, and a vicious opposition.
- cperciva 2y ago
  German environmentalism is NIMBY combined with support for Russian fossil fuels.
  - consumer451 2y ago
    For a bit more depth here, it turns out that German anti-nuclear (and other green energy source) activists were funded by Russia, a fossil fuel empire. [0] It should also be noted that some of the US anti-nuclear activism was also funded by US fossil fuel industry, since the 1950's. [1] [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement#Fossil_fuels_industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement#Fossil_f...
    - ttepasse 2y ago
      > For a bit more depth here, it turns out that German anti-nuclear (and other green energy source) activists were funded by Russia, a fossil fuel empire. That sentence falsely implies that all German anti-nuclear sentiment is a result of Russian (and previous soviet) financing, which gives the wrong impression, I think. Some more depth: Growing up and living here, Germany’s anti-nuclear sentiment is majorly home-grown. You don’t get the multi-million public demonstrations just on foreign-financed activists. You don’t get multiple German federal election won just on foreign-financed activists. Insinuating so disregards the local politics and societal sentiment of Germany from ca. the 70s onwards. Germany’s anti-nuclear sentiment is based on multiple strands, in my experience: * General “radiation” skepticism, amplified by literature including children’s literature and tv reporting, sometimes even by real scandals like the leukemia thing. * The very real possibility of Germany automatically becoming a nuclear battlefield of hundreds nuclear tactical explosions in the Cold War. Both the Warsaw Pact and NATO planned going nuclear from the first day. (Nuclear weapons and power are of course different things, but ... well) * The search of nuclear waste storage location (not just spent nuclear fuel but secondary waste, high and intermediate level waste) was absurdly missmanaged. And then there is a string of accidents at pilot waste storage facilities. In my opinion you can’t explain the 2011 decision on Fukushima alone without talking about the preceding Asse II scandal. * And yes, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima turbocharged pre-existing sentiments. That is not to say Russia (and the Soviet Union before) as petro-states don’t have an interest and don’t try to corrupt. They certainly do. Given what we know, they seem to have targeted politicians [1], more with a Pro-Gas-message, less with an anti-nuclear or green-energy-message. Both would be dumb for someone who wants to sell fossil fuels [2]. It’s no surprise that they seem now to target AfD and BWS, the far right and left parties with a pro-fossil-fuel-message. But that's the same in all western democracies. [1] Small nitpick about your source [0]: Waszczykowski is a member of PIS and former minister in Poland’s PIS government. PIS has made a habit out of targeting Germany for domestic populist sentiment and in intra-EU squabbles. I’d interpret the question partially in that light. Giving the timing of that question I’d suspect the somewhat distorted kernel of truth must be Schwesig and the Nordstream II foundation, but I’d hesitate calling Schwesig an anti-nuclear activist, more a somewhat corrupt or naive politician. [2] Russian/Soviet Gas was never a replacement for nuclear power in Germany. The vast majority of Germany’s gas usage is residential or industrial not in power plants. Burning gas domestically in apartment/house boilers for heat or in industrial applications doesn’t profit from electric energy – because replacing all these boilers is a multi-generational infrastructure project. Instead nuclear in Germany’s power mix was slowly replaced by by green energy and biofuels: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/energy-statistics-data-browser?country=DEU&fuel=Energy%20supply&indicator=ElecGenByFuel https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/energy-st...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

German environmentalism is NIMBY with extra steps.

consumer451 2y ago
I am not jumping into any side of the argument here, but it is worth noting that the area of "my back yard" is much smaller, and more densely packed in European countries, as compared to the seemingly endless land of the USA.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > the area of the "my back yard" is much smaller, and more densely packed in European countries Germany is the 65th most densely-populated country in the world, behind the U.K., Japan, the Netherlands, Taiwan and Singapore [1]. It is not too dense for industry, that’s literally just thinly-veiled NIMBYism. My point is a realistic solution is never offered. Should Tesla not expand in favour of ICE production? Is the solution to deindustrialise Germany and put all the plants in Eastern Europe? It’s a short-term fixation on nearby problems without regards for global impact, and it’s characteristic of the German greens. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...
  - EA-3167 2y ago
    > Sure, but the point is where would they prefer Tesla expand? Tesla is not some necessity, it doesn't have to expand, this isn't like rejecting housing or new sanitation facilities.
    - adolph 2y ago
      Oh, protecting local established manufacturers. That makes sense.
      - EA-3167 2y ago
        Why not? It's also not like this is a foreign established manufacturer like Toyota, it's an Elon Musk joint, I can't think of many less trustworthy businessmen off the top of my head. I think they have every reason to doubt any promises Tesla makes, and doubt its future as well.
        exe34 2y ago
        Don't accept promises, get written contracts with expensive penalty clauses.
        EA-3167 2y ago
        That's a good idea, but never seems to happen; certainly it didn't in this case. Even when it does, the penalties are inevitably a fraction of the realized profits.
  - Mechanical9 2y ago
    Why is it always Tesla vs. ICE? Seems like a false dichotomy.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Why is it always Tesla vs. ICE? Seems like a false dichotomy Tesla is the largest EV-only manufacturer in Germany, and is the second-largest seller of EVs in the country [1]. (Also, unless there is a record of Tesla factories being unusually dirty, the protesters are protesting expanding EV production in general. That it’s owned by Tesla seems irrelevant, another manufacturer would raise the same stated concerns.) [1] https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/2023-full-year-germany-best-selling-electric-cars-by-brand-and-model/ https://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/2023-full-year-ger...
HideousKojima 2y ago
And unless you're pushing for anarchoprimitivism or the like, the factories building your environmentally friendly electric cars are going to have to be built somewhere. I'm reminded of an experience in high school near San Diego, where tons of people were opposed to a new (solar!) power plant out in the desert to the east and they were opposed to the high voltage power lines that would have brought power from this plant into the city. I'm sure there were other, less unhinged reasons to oppose it but the most vocal were the environmentalists opposing it because the transmission lines would interfere with some desert tortoise species habitat. Environmentalists protesting solar power is one of those hilarities that the universe just plops right on your lap sometimes.
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  I know of some owners of mini McMansions on 1-2 acre desert lots are up in arms about a 100MW solar plant being built nearby. I think they're pick any/all, old people that are fearful and hate change, OCD spectrum disorder types, and people that have transferred their well justified fear that the next brush fire will burn their houses down to the solar plant. Notable that last one where people transfer anxiety about one thing to another thing is really common.
- eesmith 2y ago
  "Environmentally friendly" is not a binary description. Electric cars may be more environmentally friendly than petroleum cars, but less environmentally friendly than a bicycle or electric bus. Calling for more mass transit, better support for cycling, and a de-emphasis on personal automobile transport is not anarchoprimitivism.
Gibbon1 2y ago
Engineer I know that worked for a sterilization company said it was impossible to build a plant in Germany. Because there are three factions, businesses, labor, and greens. Business was mostly supportive. Labor wouldn't help because the factories employ like 20 people. And greens oppose because 'chemicals' To do anything you need 2 of 3 and you only would get a half hearted, a neutral, and a vicious opposition.
cperciva 2y ago
German environmentalism is NIMBY combined with support for Russian fossil fuels.
- consumer451 2y ago
  For a bit more depth here, it turns out that German anti-nuclear (and other green energy source) activists were funded by Russia, a fossil fuel empire. [0] It should also be noted that some of the US anti-nuclear activism was also funded by US fossil fuel industry, since the 1950's. [1] [0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-001275_EN.html https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/P-9-2022-00127... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement#Fossil_fuels_industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-nuclear_movement#Fossil_f...
  - ttepasse 2y ago
    > For a bit more depth here, it turns out that German anti-nuclear (and other green energy source) activists were funded by Russia, a fossil fuel empire. That sentence falsely implies that all German anti-nuclear sentiment is a result of Russian (and previous soviet) financing, which gives the wrong impression, I think. Some more depth: Growing up and living here, Germany’s anti-nuclear sentiment is majorly home-grown. You don’t get the multi-million public demonstrations just on foreign-financed activists. You don’t get multiple German federal election won just on foreign-financed activists. Insinuating so disregards the local politics and societal sentiment of Germany from ca. the 70s onwards. Germany’s anti-nuclear sentiment is based on multiple strands, in my experience: * General “radiation” skepticism, amplified by literature including children’s literature and tv reporting, sometimes even by real scandals like the leukemia thing. * The very real possibility of Germany automatically becoming a nuclear battlefield of hundreds nuclear tactical explosions in the Cold War. Both the Warsaw Pact and NATO planned going nuclear from the first day. (Nuclear weapons and power are of course different things, but ... well) * The search of nuclear waste storage location (not just spent nuclear fuel but secondary waste, high and intermediate level waste) was absurdly missmanaged. And then there is a string of accidents at pilot waste storage facilities. In my opinion you can’t explain the 2011 decision on Fukushima alone without talking about the preceding Asse II scandal. * And yes, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima turbocharged pre-existing sentiments. That is not to say Russia (and the Soviet Union before) as petro-states don’t have an interest and don’t try to corrupt. They certainly do. Given what we know, they seem to have targeted politicians [1], more with a Pro-Gas-message, less with an anti-nuclear or green-energy-message. Both would be dumb for someone who wants to sell fossil fuels [2]. It’s no surprise that they seem now to target AfD and BWS, the far right and left parties with a pro-fossil-fuel-message. But that's the same in all western democracies. [1] Small nitpick about your source [0]: Waszczykowski is a member of PIS and former minister in Poland’s PIS government. PIS has made a habit out of targeting Germany for domestic populist sentiment and in intra-EU squabbles. I’d interpret the question partially in that light. Giving the timing of that question I’d suspect the somewhat distorted kernel of truth must be Schwesig and the Nordstream II foundation, but I’d hesitate calling Schwesig an anti-nuclear activist, more a somewhat corrupt or naive politician. [2] Russian/Soviet Gas was never a replacement for nuclear power in Germany. The vast majority of Germany’s gas usage is residential or industrial not in power plants. Burning gas domestically in apartment/house boilers for heat or in industrial applications doesn’t profit from electric energy – because replacing all these boilers is a multi-generational infrastructure project. Instead nuclear in Germany’s power mix was slowly replaced by by green energy and biofuels: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/energy-statistics-data-browser?country=DEU&fuel=Energy%20supply&indicator=ElecGenByFuel https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/data-tools/energy-st...