7 ms·

The “art world” is wildly divorced from the tastes of the majority of people in society - one could uncharitably but not inaccurately characterise the modern ar

The “art world” is wildly divorced from the tastes of the majority of people in society - one could uncharitably but not inaccurately characterise the modern art world as a means to arrange for low cost materials to be purchased for vast sums in tax advantageous ways. If we look at an art form where there is a lot of validation by the majority of people, tv and films, we see people “painting the same thing” all the time because that’s what the “zeitgeist” is interested in 500 years ago there were very few books and the west European zeitgeist was mostly the bible anyway.

lifeisstillgood 2y ago
Some relevant links / reading - https://www.rusi.org/publication/understanding-art-market-and-anti-money-laundering-regulations https://www.rusi.org/publication/understanding-art-market-an... - https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/reports/Money-Laundering-Terrorist-Financing-Art-Antiquities-Market.pdf.coredownload.pdf https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/reports/Mone...
glitchc 2y ago
This. The modern art world is predominantly a tax evasion and racketeering scheme, designed to transfer assets outside the influence of national and international law.
- philosopher1234 2y ago
  How does it work? And what’s the evidence that this is true? People love to say this but I’ve never seen anyone go beyond the surface on the took. The impression I get is it’s mostly people who don’t know what they’re talking about repeating a pleasing idea.
  - amiga386 2y ago
    It's used for money laundering, wealth transfer and tax avoidance. You buy and sell art, especially art that permanently resides in freeports, with cash, with shell companies that don't declare their ultimate beneficiary. You then avoid anyone knowing that you paid criminal X or criminal X paid you with the proceeds of crime. You avoid your government knowing that you have $XXX,XXX,XXX of assets stashed away that you're not declaring. You don't pay capital gains tax on it. And so on. Governments around the world have been passing legislation in the past few years, and putting diplomatic pressure on governments of other tax havens, to tighten scrutiny of these international financial transactions. https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-freeports-operate-margins-global-art-market https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-freeports-oper... https://news.artnet.com/market/switzerland-freeport-regulations-367361 https://news.artnet.com/market/switzerland-freeport-regulati... https://safehaven.com/markets/markets-other/How-The-Ultra-Wealthy-Are-Using-Art-To-Dodge-Taxes.html https://safehaven.com/markets/markets-other/How-The-Ultra-We... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      You're providing evidence that crime exists, not that art as a whole is "predominantly a tax evasion and racketeering scheme". Where is the evidence that this represents the majority of art purchases? It's also weird to even call this a tax dodge. If you make money in New York and not London then you should be paying taxes to New York and not London because your operations are using New York streets and New York sewers and hiring kids from New York schools etc., and that's what those taxes are paying for. You haven't used any of London's infrastructure to do it so they don't get any of the money. If you make money in some free port or <unspecified location> which is so un-tied to any other jurisdiction that you have no meaningful operations in any of them, why should any of them have a claim to the money? None of them have done anything to earn it.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        Art is definitely used as a tax dodge by the wealthy, but to suggest that the entire ecosystem is nothing but that is not correct. People that say this usually lack a deeper understanding of contemporary art.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        I'm still not clear how this is even supposed to be tax evasion. If you're not operating in a jurisdiction then you shouldn't owe them any taxes. Which jurisdiction is even alleged to be owed the money, and on what basis?
        keiferski 2y ago
        Well, presumably the whole concept of a Freeport is kind of a “hack” against the tax system. These items are treated as if they’re in transit, but they are stored indefinitely.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        They're treated as if they're outside of the jurisdiction, because they are. It's not a hack, it's just a fact. It's not even weird. The weird expectation is that areas outside of a given country's jurisdiction wouldn't exist.
  - Nevermark 2y ago
    For starters, you can purchase and store art in an airport storage area where it never goes through any customs. [0] Presumably, this is art that will accrue in value, but is (rarely) ever viewed, so is purely a financial vehicle for maintaining and transferring ownership of wealth outside any taxation jurisdiction. Another game is the ultra rich and famous getting richer. Art is valued not just for its objective aesthetic appeal (ha ha! As if!!) but based on its providence. Meaning who created it, and also its history. Included who has owned it. If you are Oprah Winfrey, and you purchase some art that only the top 1% of 1% can afford. It is likely that when you sell it, not only will the exclusivity of the particular artifact itself have gained value, but now that his has been owned by Oprah, it will be worth even more. And by modeling the value she places on art, she validates these extreme price levels both when buying and selling, which benefits the whole art world. [1] Which, in full circle, makes art even more useful as a financial instrument. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Freeport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Freeport [1] https://news.artnet.com/market/oprah-sells-famed-gustav-klimt-portrait-150-million-851537 https://news.artnet.com/market/oprah-sells-famed-gustav-klim...
    - perfmode 2y ago
      physical NFTs
  - janandonly 2y ago
    Under Dutch tax law: if you have a gold coin you need to pay “box 3” meaning wealth tax on it. But if you have a bunch of gold coins you can call them “an art collection” and now you don’t pay any wealthy tax on them at al.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      This is one of the main reasons that wealth taxes are bad policy. There are many assets that could have significant value, but the value is highly subjective. Since an accurate valuation is impossible and the range of plausible valuations is wide, it inherently becomes a system for arbitrage and distorts investment into whatever assets minimize the tax. Overestimating the value of hard-to-price assets is massively destructive (people get rid of and make no attempt to acquire those assets because the tax exceeds their value; no more art), but setting their value to zero or otherwise underestimating their value does exactly as you're seeing. Nearly all other taxes solve this by applying the tax when a transaction occurs and the current value is known in the form of the price being paid by the buyer to the seller.
      - pydry 2y ago
        There's an easy fix for that. You tell the government how much it is worth for tax purposes. If the government thinks you have underestimated it they reserve the right to buy it at that price. It would make tax evasion risky and expensive.
        perfmode 2y ago
        clever. how’d you come up with that?
        habitue 2y ago
        It's called a harberger tax: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harberger_Tax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harberger_Tax
  - holoduke 2y ago
    Of course it is. In many countries there is tax on liquid assets. Thats why these people buy art, cars etc. Things the tax authority cannot easily identify. Its also easy to transport these goods to another country. Its easy to change the value temporarily so you can move funds arround very easily. I know some people doing it and storing their stuff in Dubai. Tax evasion is number one reason.
- kingkawn 2y ago
  How reductionist and incurious about what art can be
  - CarRamrod 2y ago
    Elucidate, and enlighten us
  - kbelder 2y ago
    He didn't criticize art. He criticized the "art world". They're very different things. They're perhaps opposing.
  - rnd0 2y ago
    >How reductionist and incurious And yet, not incorrect.
mymythisisthis 2y ago
If feel that with Youtube you get a touch of the Zeitgeist. There are some milquetoast channels like 'Hoovie's Garage', 'Rich Rebuilds', that tap into what average people are interested in watching. You can also see the small changes in the medium; everybody at once adopting click-bait titles once one person was successful with it. As soon as a channel gets some success like 'Hand Tool Restoration' then everyone starts doing the same thing.
- code_biologist 2y ago
  If anyone reading this likes handtool restoration but has not come across the "my mechanics" channel, you have to check it out! I agree with your assessment, but would add that sometimes fads popularize people with such skill and attention to detail that their success is well deserved. My Mechanics is one of those cases.
whilenot-dev 2y ago
Additional to this, there's also the industrialization making tools more affordable, the globalization questioning the hetero-/homogeneous structure of the "zeitgeist", and an exploration into the unlimited possibilities of what an artistic medium could be. I would say it's even more fascinating that despite the richness in today's world that we can still find some common ground at all.
Neil44 2y ago
The tastes of the majority of people in society are for things they have already seen. It does not follow that we should only produce things that are similar to what has gone before.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Almondsetat 2y ago
>The “art world” is wildly divorced from the tastes of the majority of people in society Is this supposed to be a bad thing? Because, if that's what you're saying, then what is your idea of "art"? Something that you can buy, have promptly delivered and hanged on a wall to decorate a space and get compliments from passers-by? Would you like if all music was something designed to be played on the radio or in malls to decorate musically the environment?
- Kamq 2y ago
  > what is your idea of "art"? Something designed to elicit an emotional reaction from human beings. It doesn't have to be a pleasant emotional reaction, but there should be one. On that metric the modern art world has with their art, generally speaking, failed. You can't be completely divorced from people and still elicit emotional reactions. Your swings just miss. Hilariously enough, the art world itself, continues to elicit quite strong emotional reactions, even if the art itself does not. It's possible the entirety of the art scene is actually wildly successful performance art that went entirely over my head.
- rfrey 2y ago
  In music, there are a wide variety of genres with a wide variety of sophistication. And for the most part, there are serious artists doing serious work in all genres, including pop, c&w, hiphop, etc. The most esoteric Jazz musician will have pop artists she admires. The art world seems to be divided into impenetrable pieces that you need 10 years of education before you can understand how they "engage with the conversation", and dross that is supposedly only suitable for motel 6 bathroom walls. Most of the art economy is money laundering with a defensive wall of sophistication put up around it. Most people know the emperor has no body paint, but it's not worth having a bunch of sophisticates sneer at you to bother voicing an opinion.
  - kazinator 2y ago
    In music, the pitch-and-harmony-related content matters---that stuff we can capture in traditional sheet music---but it isn't everything, by a long shot. You might think some pop song is hogwash, until you hear cover after cover that cannot nail it.

lifeisstillgood 2y ago

Some relevant links / reading - https://www.rusi.org/publication/understanding-art-market-and-anti-money-laundering-regulations https://www.rusi.org/publication/understanding-art-market-an... - https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/reports/Money-Laundering-Terrorist-Financing-Art-Antiquities-Market.pdf.coredownload.pdf https://www.fatf-gafi.org/content/dam/fatf-gafi/reports/Mone...

glitchc 2y ago

This. The modern art world is predominantly a tax evasion and racketeering scheme, designed to transfer assets outside the influence of national and international law.

philosopher1234 2y ago
How does it work? And what’s the evidence that this is true? People love to say this but I’ve never seen anyone go beyond the surface on the took. The impression I get is it’s mostly people who don’t know what they’re talking about repeating a pleasing idea.
- amiga386 2y ago
  It's used for money laundering, wealth transfer and tax avoidance. You buy and sell art, especially art that permanently resides in freeports, with cash, with shell companies that don't declare their ultimate beneficiary. You then avoid anyone knowing that you paid criminal X or criminal X paid you with the proceeds of crime. You avoid your government knowing that you have $XXX,XXX,XXX of assets stashed away that you're not declaring. You don't pay capital gains tax on it. And so on. Governments around the world have been passing legislation in the past few years, and putting diplomatic pressure on governments of other tax havens, to tighten scrutiny of these international financial transactions. https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-freeports-operate-margins-global-art-market https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-freeports-oper... https://news.artnet.com/market/switzerland-freeport-regulations-367361 https://news.artnet.com/market/switzerland-freeport-regulati... https://safehaven.com/markets/markets-other/How-The-Ultra-Wealthy-Are-Using-Art-To-Dodge-Taxes.html https://safehaven.com/markets/markets-other/How-The-Ultra-We... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    You're providing evidence that crime exists, not that art as a whole is "predominantly a tax evasion and racketeering scheme". Where is the evidence that this represents the majority of art purchases? It's also weird to even call this a tax dodge. If you make money in New York and not London then you should be paying taxes to New York and not London because your operations are using New York streets and New York sewers and hiring kids from New York schools etc., and that's what those taxes are paying for. You haven't used any of London's infrastructure to do it so they don't get any of the money. If you make money in some free port or <unspecified location> which is so un-tied to any other jurisdiction that you have no meaningful operations in any of them, why should any of them have a claim to the money? None of them have done anything to earn it.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Art is definitely used as a tax dodge by the wealthy, but to suggest that the entire ecosystem is nothing but that is not correct. People that say this usually lack a deeper understanding of contemporary art.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        I'm still not clear how this is even supposed to be tax evasion. If you're not operating in a jurisdiction then you shouldn't owe them any taxes. Which jurisdiction is even alleged to be owed the money, and on what basis?
        keiferski 2y ago
        Well, presumably the whole concept of a Freeport is kind of a “hack” against the tax system. These items are treated as if they’re in transit, but they are stored indefinitely.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        They're treated as if they're outside of the jurisdiction, because they are. It's not a hack, it's just a fact. It's not even weird. The weird expectation is that areas outside of a given country's jurisdiction wouldn't exist.
- Nevermark 2y ago
  For starters, you can purchase and store art in an airport storage area where it never goes through any customs. [0] Presumably, this is art that will accrue in value, but is (rarely) ever viewed, so is purely a financial vehicle for maintaining and transferring ownership of wealth outside any taxation jurisdiction. Another game is the ultra rich and famous getting richer. Art is valued not just for its objective aesthetic appeal (ha ha! As if!!) but based on its providence. Meaning who created it, and also its history. Included who has owned it. If you are Oprah Winfrey, and you purchase some art that only the top 1% of 1% can afford. It is likely that when you sell it, not only will the exclusivity of the particular artifact itself have gained value, but now that his has been owned by Oprah, it will be worth even more. And by modeling the value she places on art, she validates these extreme price levels both when buying and selling, which benefits the whole art world. [1] Which, in full circle, makes art even more useful as a financial instrument. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Freeport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Freeport [1] https://news.artnet.com/market/oprah-sells-famed-gustav-klimt-portrait-150-million-851537 https://news.artnet.com/market/oprah-sells-famed-gustav-klim...
  - perfmode 2y ago
    physical NFTs
- janandonly 2y ago
  Under Dutch tax law: if you have a gold coin you need to pay “box 3” meaning wealth tax on it. But if you have a bunch of gold coins you can call them “an art collection” and now you don’t pay any wealthy tax on them at al.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    This is one of the main reasons that wealth taxes are bad policy. There are many assets that could have significant value, but the value is highly subjective. Since an accurate valuation is impossible and the range of plausible valuations is wide, it inherently becomes a system for arbitrage and distorts investment into whatever assets minimize the tax. Overestimating the value of hard-to-price assets is massively destructive (people get rid of and make no attempt to acquire those assets because the tax exceeds their value; no more art), but setting their value to zero or otherwise underestimating their value does exactly as you're seeing. Nearly all other taxes solve this by applying the tax when a transaction occurs and the current value is known in the form of the price being paid by the buyer to the seller.
    - pydry 2y ago
      There's an easy fix for that. You tell the government how much it is worth for tax purposes. If the government thinks you have underestimated it they reserve the right to buy it at that price. It would make tax evasion risky and expensive.
      - perfmode 2y ago
        clever. how’d you come up with that?
        habitue 2y ago
        It's called a harberger tax: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harberger_Tax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harberger_Tax
- holoduke 2y ago
  Of course it is. In many countries there is tax on liquid assets. Thats why these people buy art, cars etc. Things the tax authority cannot easily identify. Its also easy to transport these goods to another country. Its easy to change the value temporarily so you can move funds arround very easily. I know some people doing it and storing their stuff in Dubai. Tax evasion is number one reason.
kingkawn 2y ago
How reductionist and incurious about what art can be
- CarRamrod 2y ago
  Elucidate, and enlighten us
- kbelder 2y ago
  He didn't criticize art. He criticized the "art world". They're very different things. They're perhaps opposing.
- rnd0 2y ago
  >How reductionist and incurious And yet, not incorrect.

mymythisisthis 2y ago

If feel that with Youtube you get a touch of the Zeitgeist. There are some milquetoast channels like 'Hoovie's Garage', 'Rich Rebuilds', that tap into what average people are interested in watching. You can also see the small changes in the medium; everybody at once adopting click-bait titles once one person was successful with it. As soon as a channel gets some success like 'Hand Tool Restoration' then everyone starts doing the same thing.

code_biologist 2y ago
If anyone reading this likes handtool restoration but has not come across the "my mechanics" channel, you have to check it out! I agree with your assessment, but would add that sometimes fads popularize people with such skill and attention to detail that their success is well deserved. My Mechanics is one of those cases.

whilenot-dev 2y ago

Additional to this, there's also the industrialization making tools more affordable, the globalization questioning the hetero-/homogeneous structure of the "zeitgeist", and an exploration into the unlimited possibilities of what an artistic medium could be. I would say it's even more fascinating that despite the richness in today's world that we can still find some common ground at all.

Neil44 2y ago

The tastes of the majority of people in society are for things they have already seen. It does not follow that we should only produce things that are similar to what has gone before.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Almondsetat 2y ago

>The “art world” is wildly divorced from the tastes of the majority of people in society Is this supposed to be a bad thing? Because, if that's what you're saying, then what is your idea of "art"? Something that you can buy, have promptly delivered and hanged on a wall to decorate a space and get compliments from passers-by? Would you like if all music was something designed to be played on the radio or in malls to decorate musically the environment?

Kamq 2y ago
> what is your idea of "art"? Something designed to elicit an emotional reaction from human beings. It doesn't have to be a pleasant emotional reaction, but there should be one. On that metric the modern art world has with their art, generally speaking, failed. You can't be completely divorced from people and still elicit emotional reactions. Your swings just miss. Hilariously enough, the art world itself, continues to elicit quite strong emotional reactions, even if the art itself does not. It's possible the entirety of the art scene is actually wildly successful performance art that went entirely over my head.
rfrey 2y ago
In music, there are a wide variety of genres with a wide variety of sophistication. And for the most part, there are serious artists doing serious work in all genres, including pop, c&w, hiphop, etc. The most esoteric Jazz musician will have pop artists she admires. The art world seems to be divided into impenetrable pieces that you need 10 years of education before you can understand how they "engage with the conversation", and dross that is supposedly only suitable for motel 6 bathroom walls. Most of the art economy is money laundering with a defensive wall of sophistication put up around it. Most people know the emperor has no body paint, but it's not worth having a bunch of sophisticates sneer at you to bother voicing an opinion.
- kazinator 2y ago
  In music, the pitch-and-harmony-related content matters---that stuff we can capture in traditional sheet music---but it isn't everything, by a long shot. You might think some pop song is hogwash, until you hear cover after cover that cannot nail it.