5 ms·

> defined in such a way that two with the same label can have remarkably little overlap in terms of observed behaviour I believed this until my daughter was di

> defined in such a way that two with the same label can have remarkably little overlap in terms of observed behaviour I believed this until my daughter was diagnosed and then I was later diagnosed. My experience with (some) professionals was a surprise to me; a much wider variety of "observed behaviors" than I expected seem to stem from sensory issues for example. And I think it makes sense that humans might adopt a wide variety of ways to deal with for a much smaller variety of processing issues. (Unrelated to the professional experience) Have you looked into monotropism? It's a fairly compact theory that ties a lot of behaviors together that might look like they have no overlap from the outside. Also: > It’s a label for those perceived by others in a certain light Lots of people self-diagnose.

faeriechangling 2y ago
If you ask the majority of people if somebody who they do not perceive as engaging in autisitic behaviours, and was not diagnosed as autistic, but considers themselves autistic, is autistic, they will say no. Scientifically (which how it’s defined in the OP), it’s not defined by psychiatrist appraisal and self-assessment plays no necessary role in the process and alone holds no diagnostic validity. We can also invert this: self-denial doesn’t make one non-autistic if they’re seen as engaging in autistic behaviours and are diagnosed as autistic by a professional. I’ll concede that a minority believe that autism is self-definable though. I’d prefer things that way myself, but the among other things it would make it impossible to gatekeep services for the autistic if self-diagnosis were held in the same esteem as physician diagnosis, so it won’t catch on anytime soon.
- flatline 2y ago
  I’m not sure what point you are making with this reply. I’m late/adult self-identifying autistic. I’ve done this with some of the standard tests that psychiatrists use, attended workgroups related to the topic, and studied extensively. Self-diagnosis is highly accurate for autism, both for positive and negative evaluations. I am also pursuing a formal diagnosis because so many people downplay it when I tell them I’m autistic. I don’t have the affect at first glance, but it does come out in my behaviors if you get to know me a bit. I’ve also had the luxury of therapy, eduction, etc. I also agree that the categorization is overly broad and your original post resonates. There are various non-overlapping clusters of traits that fall under autism. I do think, however, that at the core of it is a common difference in information and sensory processing.
  - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    Adults that get diagnosed later typically have developed very good ability to mask so casual acquaintances probably don’t suspect they are autistic. So it’s not surprising they would downplay it.
  - faeriechangling 2y ago
    >Self-diagnosis is highly accurate for autism, both for positive and negative evaluations. I've also gone into autism communities before and declared that I had self-undiagnosed myself with autism, which is something I've desired recently, to re-diagnose myself as not being autistic and either having nothing or ADHD. This was totally rejected, and repeatedly brought up was my admittance to a lengthy period of diagnosis, overseen my multiple doctors, from a very young age, which all were seen as evidence of the validity of my diagnosis (conversely, I'd presume, they treat the opposite as more less valid or invalid). Interestingly the same people generally accepted diagnosis, but to reject a diagnosis, well that was beyond the pale and denialism. I brought up the same to a psychiatrist, saying I wanted to be treated by a psychiatrist for ADHD and NOT autism because I believe it will lead to superior outcomes. They blew me off, exasperated, saying that any psychiatrist would simply observe my symptoms and deem me autistic and treat me that way no matter what I did, denying that I even had the capability or possibility to receive treatment which was not based on the premise that I was autistic. Metabolic testing and self-diagnosis be damned. Just this moment I'm in the process of seeking accommodations. I self reported autistic symptoms to my employer. In the past, during interviews they have accepted my diagnosis and pledged to "accommodate" me accordingly, and I was ticked off as a diversity hire. They asked me to verify such symptoms with a doctor. They subsequently said they reserve the right to an independent psychological assessment of myself or my records. This is very pleasing to me, as either I shall receive accommodations and an affirmation that I am autistic, or my undiagnosis, which is truly a win-win. If I was in family court, and it was argued that I was unable to say take care of children because I'm autistic, I could not successfully object on the grounds that "I'm not autistic". Yet my observation is what is considered the true measure of somebodies autisticness, the validity of their diagnosis and their symptoms, is independent psychological assessments by an examiner not beholden to your own self-assessment. I theorise this is both because of a lack of faith in the competence of either of us to assess an autism diagnosis, as well as a lack of faith in our objectivity. I've met a number of self-diagnosed people who are shy about disclosure or asking for accommodation BECAUSE they are self-diagnosed, and while obviously believing in the reality of their autism, are either self-sceptical or believe in others scepticism to a degree not commonly seen in those medically diagnosed. I don't mean to be exclusionary or gatekeeping, just descriptive of what I believe to be social/political/legal/scientific reality. I don't like that things are this way, I'm aware that hilariously I've never seen ANY evidence that suggests physician diagnosis is more accurate than self-diagnosis, I'm aware of the many historical problems with physician diagnosis, I merely believe that they ARE this way.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  I’ve never met anyone that self identifies as autistic that didn’t have some obvious behaviors (in the tech world there are a lot). This seems like a strawman.
somenameforme 2y ago
Here [1] is the DSM diagnostic criteria for autism. It's broad to the point of absurdity. The reason many people think autism is a faux disorder is because it includes everything from an individual who simply sits in the corner endlessly flapping his hands, completely unable to function as a human being, to Bill Gates or Elon Musk. The weaker diagnoses, which is an increasingly large chunk of all of them, often seem like an effect to pathologize normal behavioral differences within people. This is, IMO, one of those things people are definitely going to look back at think 'wtf were they even thinking?' [1] - https://a4.org.au/dsm5-asd https://a4.org.au/dsm5-asd
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  Drug users can include people from a homeless addict who can barely stay conscious to Elon Musk. Does that mean the concept is absurd?
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  frankly, this will continue as long as performance-enhancing drugs and accommodations are gated behind diagnoses
  - pseudalopex 2y ago
    What performance enhancing drugs are prescribed for autism?
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      i thought we prescribed adderall for autism, but i guess cross-diagnoses are just so common nowadays that i didn’t realize what it was being prescribed for among people i know
      - ModernMech 2y ago
        You may be under this impression because ADHD and Autism are so frequently comorbid: According to the scientific literature, 50 to 70% of individuals with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) also present with comorbid attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). From a clinical perspective, this high rate of comorbidity is intriguing. What is the real significance of this dual diagnosis? Is ADHD in fact always present in such cases? Might the attentional impairment reported among our ASD patients actually be a distinct trait of their ASD—namely, impaired joint attention—rather than an ADHD attention deficit? Could their agitation be the consequence of this joint attention impairment or related to a physical restlessness etiologically very different from the agitation typical of ADHD? The neurobiological reality of ASD-ADHD comorbidity is a subject of debate, and amphetamine-based treatment can have paradoxical or undesirable effects in the ASD population. Consequently, does a dual diagnosis, notwithstanding its currency in the literature, prevent us from shedding sufficient light on major physiopathologic questions raised by the clinical picture of ASD? https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.837424/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10....
neom 2y ago
I mean I was diagnosed with a salad of things. And then different doctors tell me different things about how they're all related or unrelated. It was honestly a very amusing situation. The only sense I got out of the whole long ass process was: neurological sensory difference "combo" in the roll of the dice, some of it given hereditarily, some this that and the other. I really see why this stuff is so frustrating for people. I'm super lucky circumstances are such for me that I can give less shits about the social issues my autism causes, allowing me to explore it.I actually just started a blog last week to share as I explore this stuff, I'm a bit shy to share it as I've never blogged in earnest before, so I have no sense of if this is good, bad, silly, lame, boring, etc: https://b.h4x.zip/autism-thinking-and-whiteboards/ https://b.h4x.zip/autism-thinking-and-whiteboards/
- ntxy 2y ago
  Please keep writing. I'm hooked!

faeriechangling 2y ago

If you ask the majority of people if somebody who they do not perceive as engaging in autisitic behaviours, and was not diagnosed as autistic, but considers themselves autistic, is autistic, they will say no. Scientifically (which how it’s defined in the OP), it’s not defined by psychiatrist appraisal and self-assessment plays no necessary role in the process and alone holds no diagnostic validity. We can also invert this: self-denial doesn’t make one non-autistic if they’re seen as engaging in autistic behaviours and are diagnosed as autistic by a professional. I’ll concede that a minority believe that autism is self-definable though. I’d prefer things that way myself, but the among other things it would make it impossible to gatekeep services for the autistic if self-diagnosis were held in the same esteem as physician diagnosis, so it won’t catch on anytime soon.

flatline 2y ago
I’m not sure what point you are making with this reply. I’m late/adult self-identifying autistic. I’ve done this with some of the standard tests that psychiatrists use, attended workgroups related to the topic, and studied extensively. Self-diagnosis is highly accurate for autism, both for positive and negative evaluations. I am also pursuing a formal diagnosis because so many people downplay it when I tell them I’m autistic. I don’t have the affect at first glance, but it does come out in my behaviors if you get to know me a bit. I’ve also had the luxury of therapy, eduction, etc. I also agree that the categorization is overly broad and your original post resonates. There are various non-overlapping clusters of traits that fall under autism. I do think, however, that at the core of it is a common difference in information and sensory processing.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  Adults that get diagnosed later typically have developed very good ability to mask so casual acquaintances probably don’t suspect they are autistic. So it’s not surprising they would downplay it.
- faeriechangling 2y ago
  >Self-diagnosis is highly accurate for autism, both for positive and negative evaluations. I've also gone into autism communities before and declared that I had self-undiagnosed myself with autism, which is something I've desired recently, to re-diagnose myself as not being autistic and either having nothing or ADHD. This was totally rejected, and repeatedly brought up was my admittance to a lengthy period of diagnosis, overseen my multiple doctors, from a very young age, which all were seen as evidence of the validity of my diagnosis (conversely, I'd presume, they treat the opposite as more less valid or invalid). Interestingly the same people generally accepted diagnosis, but to reject a diagnosis, well that was beyond the pale and denialism. I brought up the same to a psychiatrist, saying I wanted to be treated by a psychiatrist for ADHD and NOT autism because I believe it will lead to superior outcomes. They blew me off, exasperated, saying that any psychiatrist would simply observe my symptoms and deem me autistic and treat me that way no matter what I did, denying that I even had the capability or possibility to receive treatment which was not based on the premise that I was autistic. Metabolic testing and self-diagnosis be damned. Just this moment I'm in the process of seeking accommodations. I self reported autistic symptoms to my employer. In the past, during interviews they have accepted my diagnosis and pledged to "accommodate" me accordingly, and I was ticked off as a diversity hire. They asked me to verify such symptoms with a doctor. They subsequently said they reserve the right to an independent psychological assessment of myself or my records. This is very pleasing to me, as either I shall receive accommodations and an affirmation that I am autistic, or my undiagnosis, which is truly a win-win. If I was in family court, and it was argued that I was unable to say take care of children because I'm autistic, I could not successfully object on the grounds that "I'm not autistic". Yet my observation is what is considered the true measure of somebodies autisticness, the validity of their diagnosis and their symptoms, is independent psychological assessments by an examiner not beholden to your own self-assessment. I theorise this is both because of a lack of faith in the competence of either of us to assess an autism diagnosis, as well as a lack of faith in our objectivity. I've met a number of self-diagnosed people who are shy about disclosure or asking for accommodation BECAUSE they are self-diagnosed, and while obviously believing in the reality of their autism, are either self-sceptical or believe in others scepticism to a degree not commonly seen in those medically diagnosed. I don't mean to be exclusionary or gatekeeping, just descriptive of what I believe to be social/political/legal/scientific reality. I don't like that things are this way, I'm aware that hilariously I've never seen ANY evidence that suggests physician diagnosis is more accurate than self-diagnosis, I'm aware of the many historical problems with physician diagnosis, I merely believe that they ARE this way.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
I’ve never met anyone that self identifies as autistic that didn’t have some obvious behaviors (in the tech world there are a lot). This seems like a strawman.

somenameforme 2y ago

Here [1] is the DSM diagnostic criteria for autism. It's broad to the point of absurdity. The reason many people think autism is a faux disorder is because it includes everything from an individual who simply sits in the corner endlessly flapping his hands, completely unable to function as a human being, to Bill Gates or Elon Musk. The weaker diagnoses, which is an increasingly large chunk of all of them, often seem like an effect to pathologize normal behavioral differences within people. This is, IMO, one of those things people are definitely going to look back at think 'wtf were they even thinking?' [1] - https://a4.org.au/dsm5-asd https://a4.org.au/dsm5-asd

zeroonetwothree 2y ago
Drug users can include people from a homeless addict who can barely stay conscious to Elon Musk. Does that mean the concept is absurd?
whimsicalism 2y ago
frankly, this will continue as long as performance-enhancing drugs and accommodations are gated behind diagnoses
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  What performance enhancing drugs are prescribed for autism?
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    i thought we prescribed adderall for autism, but i guess cross-diagnoses are just so common nowadays that i didn’t realize what it was being prescribed for among people i know
    - ModernMech 2y ago
      You may be under this impression because ADHD and Autism are so frequently comorbid: According to the scientific literature, 50 to 70% of individuals with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) also present with comorbid attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). From a clinical perspective, this high rate of comorbidity is intriguing. What is the real significance of this dual diagnosis? Is ADHD in fact always present in such cases? Might the attentional impairment reported among our ASD patients actually be a distinct trait of their ASD—namely, impaired joint attention—rather than an ADHD attention deficit? Could their agitation be the consequence of this joint attention impairment or related to a physical restlessness etiologically very different from the agitation typical of ADHD? The neurobiological reality of ASD-ADHD comorbidity is a subject of debate, and amphetamine-based treatment can have paradoxical or undesirable effects in the ASD population. Consequently, does a dual diagnosis, notwithstanding its currency in the literature, prevent us from shedding sufficient light on major physiopathologic questions raised by the clinical picture of ASD? https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.837424/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychiatry/articles/10....

neom 2y ago

I mean I was diagnosed with a salad of things. And then different doctors tell me different things about how they're all related or unrelated. It was honestly a very amusing situation. The only sense I got out of the whole long ass process was: neurological sensory difference "combo" in the roll of the dice, some of it given hereditarily, some this that and the other. I really see why this stuff is so frustrating for people. I'm super lucky circumstances are such for me that I can give less shits about the social issues my autism causes, allowing me to explore it.I actually just started a blog last week to share as I explore this stuff, I'm a bit shy to share it as I've never blogged in earnest before, so I have no sense of if this is good, bad, silly, lame, boring, etc: https://b.h4x.zip/autism-thinking-and-whiteboards/ https://b.h4x.zip/autism-thinking-and-whiteboards/

ntxy 2y ago
Please keep writing. I'm hooked!