4 ms·

> patents don't apply to private tinkering unless there's commerce involved. While you’re unlikely to be sued for something you do in your basement that has no

by 542458 2y ago

> patents don't apply to private tinkering unless there's commerce involved. While you’re unlikely to be sued for something you do in your basement that has no broader commercial or cultural impact, it’s not impossible. There is no private use exemption to patents. https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24148/can-i-build-something-for-personal-use-if-it-is-patented https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24148/can-i-build-so...

samatman 2y ago
This isn't 100% true, it's closer to 90% true. There is a narrowly-tailored "research exemption" to patents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption So "private tinkering" where you implement something patented in order to perform research is permitted, but not for one's own benefit, even privately. For the example we're discussing, implementing Thread on some IoT device in order to benchmark it in various ways is in-bounds, but you can't use that device to your own benefit, even privately in your own home.
- eszed 2y ago
  Aye. And, as the sibling post points out, demonstrating that your benchmarking project qualifies for a Research Exemption could devolve into a lawyer-up situation.
nostrademons 2y ago
Something surprising that a couple lawyers have drilled into me: you can be sued for anything, regardless of whether it's illegal or not. The lawsuit is the discovery & decision process by which the courts decide whether your personal circumstances make it illegal. If the law is blatantly on your side you can get the lawsuit thrown out, but you still have to defend yourself, which includes the expense of hiring a lawyer. A corollary (and probably what the lawyers were getting at): not making yourself a target is more valuable than actually following the law. If you have money, keep it to yourself - some more unscrupulous actors will find some legal grey area you're operating in and sue you for it simply so they can force a settlement and get some of it. If you're doing something interesting (whether it's legal or not), keep it to yourself. If your interests are not aligned with someone else, gosh darnit, don't tell them or otherwise bring yourself to their attention. There is probably some lawsuit they can bring that would at least force an expensive court case and legal defense and make you want to settle to make it all go away. And once you are a target anyway, follow the law scrupulously. This is why big corporations invest billions in legal & compliance departments.
- mik1998 2y ago
  Really only a thing in the USA due to the ridiculous American rule wrt. attorney fees.
h4ckerle 2y ago
As always with laws this is very location specific. In germany there is a very clear clause about patents not applying to "Actions carried out in the private sphere for non-commercial purposes" (§11 PatG, own translation)
- kwhitefoot 2y ago
  Also the patents in question are probably software patents which, in theory, are not granted in Europe.
  - denschub 2y ago
    "I'm in Europe so I don't have to care because software patents are not enforceable here" isn't the solution. Yes, patent law doesn't apply - but copyright law does, and they very much can take down content that references the spec just based on copyright law alone.
    - fulafel 2y ago
      In a lot of european countries there's specific legislation allowing computing interop that overrides copyright. Eg https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/computer-programs-legal-protection.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/computer-... (Also I'd think copyright in EU doesn't normally apply to implementing protocols as it's supposed to grant monopolies of creative expression? but IANAL)
fulafel 2y ago
Huh, TIL that there are jurisdictions like this. Not in my part of the world.

by 542458 2y ago

samatman 2y ago

This isn't 100% true, it's closer to 90% true. There is a narrowly-tailored "research exemption" to patents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption So "private tinkering" where you implement something patented in order to perform research is permitted, but not for one's own benefit, even privately. For the example we're discussing, implementing Thread on some IoT device in order to benchmark it in various ways is in-bounds, but you can't use that device to your own benefit, even privately in your own home.

eszed 2y ago
Aye. And, as the sibling post points out, demonstrating that your benchmarking project qualifies for a Research Exemption could devolve into a lawyer-up situation.

nostrademons 2y ago

Something surprising that a couple lawyers have drilled into me: you can be sued for anything, regardless of whether it's illegal or not. The lawsuit is the discovery & decision process by which the courts decide whether your personal circumstances make it illegal. If the law is blatantly on your side you can get the lawsuit thrown out, but you still have to defend yourself, which includes the expense of hiring a lawyer. A corollary (and probably what the lawyers were getting at): not making yourself a target is more valuable than actually following the law. If you have money, keep it to yourself - some more unscrupulous actors will find some legal grey area you're operating in and sue you for it simply so they can force a settlement and get some of it. If you're doing something interesting (whether it's legal or not), keep it to yourself. If your interests are not aligned with someone else, gosh darnit, don't tell them or otherwise bring yourself to their attention. There is probably some lawsuit they can bring that would at least force an expensive court case and legal defense and make you want to settle to make it all go away. And once you are a target anyway, follow the law scrupulously. This is why big corporations invest billions in legal & compliance departments.

mik1998 2y ago
Really only a thing in the USA due to the ridiculous American rule wrt. attorney fees.

h4ckerle 2y ago

As always with laws this is very location specific. In germany there is a very clear clause about patents not applying to "Actions carried out in the private sphere for non-commercial purposes" (§11 PatG, own translation)

kwhitefoot 2y ago
Also the patents in question are probably software patents which, in theory, are not granted in Europe.
- denschub 2y ago
  "I'm in Europe so I don't have to care because software patents are not enforceable here" isn't the solution. Yes, patent law doesn't apply - but copyright law does, and they very much can take down content that references the spec just based on copyright law alone.
  - fulafel 2y ago
    In a lot of european countries there's specific legislation allowing computing interop that overrides copyright. Eg https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/computer-programs-legal-protection.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/computer-... (Also I'd think copyright in EU doesn't normally apply to implementing protocols as it's supposed to grant monopolies of creative expression? but IANAL)

fulafel 2y ago

Huh, TIL that there are jurisdictions like this. Not in my part of the world.