6 ms·

Hang on that's a huge leap. > Yes, maybe hobbyists can play with this, but they cannot form communities, they cannot share wisdom, they can't sell boards to ea

by IanCal 2y ago

Hang on that's a huge leap. > Yes, maybe hobbyists can play with this, but they cannot form communities, they cannot share wisdom, they can't sell boards to each other, they can't even talk about the protocol or spec on detail. But it just says you can't ship products and talking isn't shipping a product. The only part I see there is what if you sell things built on it. Like sure it could be more open and sure having some small business exemption would be good but that's not the same as not being allowed to just make some stuff and talk about it.

lelanthran 2y ago
What do you think they mean by this: > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications.
- scotty79 2y ago
  That if you are a corporation that wants to use this tech in your products (devices) you are advised to join Thread Group as soon as possible because you'll be required to do that when you ship stuff anyways. Possibly compelled by court if you resist. They probably didn't expect interest from singular hobbyists, let alone hobbyists reading what they put out in the most uncharitable fashion. They have some clarifying to do if they decide that they care.
  - ang_cire 2y ago
    You are ignoring "practice", which in this context means any kind of operational use, including things like research (they also specify "implementation" separately, to explicitly cover development of products). Practice here is as in "practice medicine", not "practice for tryouts".
    - scotty79 2y ago
      "practice" here probably means use in your business of manufacturing devices
      - lelanthran 2y ago
        > "practice" here probably means use in your business of manufacturing devices "probably"? It's a legal document that lists the things you may not do as vaguely and as broad as possible, and lists suing you as the first recourse in their remediation. It's unwise to err on the side of "allowed" instead of erring on the side of "disallowed".
        scotty79 2y ago
        It's unwise to err on either side. The license doesn't contain phrase "you do not blog about Thread or we'll sue you". Because that's not what they meant, because it's ridiculous. There's only a singular threat in the license is here: "Failure to maintain active Thread Group membership while shipping Thread technology may result in legal action, including but not limited to licensing fees." It specifically mentions shipping.
        lelanthran 2y ago
        > It specifically mentions shipping. It specifically mentions "specifications" too, and I did quote that bit in a previous comment that you replied to, so I know you read it. How are we supposed to interpret "Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications." You are specifically, in the license, forbidden from implementing, practicing or shipping the SPECIFICATIONS. You literally cannot transfer any material or content that reveals the specifications.
        scotty79 2y ago
        Their intention for specifications are clearly stated in the earlier part of the document: Thread Group [...] grants you [...] license [...] to view, download, save, reproduce and use the Specification solely for your own internal purposes [...] you shall not: 1) loan, rent, lease, sublicense, sell, or permit others to use the Specification; 2) modify, adapt, translate, or otherwise change the Specification in any manner or create any derivative work of the Specification; [...] copy or reproduce the Specification except for backup or archival purposes in connection with your internal use; or 4) remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Specification. So yeah, you can't create derivative works from these specifications. Is a blog post about it a derivative work? Who knows. Probably not. Probably what they meant is you just can't create your own Threads 2.0 specification or create unauthorized translation of it (which although restrictive is reasonable because they just don't trust you to not mess things up). They clearly just want to remain the single source of truth for Thread specification on the net, to avoid ecosystem fragmentation and they intend to sustain themselves from licensing fees from commercial device manufacturers. Even with all their conditions normal rights to citation, critique, parody probably apply.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
You're talking to the question, but the answer is even more conservative & scary than the question posed, > are not conferred the IP rights required to practice and ship Thread technology, Under this, it sounds like one isn't even allowed to dabble with Thread without $7.5k/year membership. You aren't allowed to practice is the words they respond with, which seems far more constraining than shipping. Re-quoting the licensing agreement requires to download the spec, > view, download, save, reproduce and use the Specification solely for your own internal purposes > are not conferred the IP rights required to practice and ship Thread technology, > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications. So yeah, actually it seems like even doing hobbyist things by yourself & telling no one is still far more than Thread group allows. Fuck Thread! It's just so unbelievably shitty having the connected device technologies of our world be un-practiceable by mere mortals.
- IanCal 2y ago
  and ship.
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    As a software engineer, our confidence that and means "both of these things" is high. I feel like you're taking quite a gamble doing that in law. Anyone posting to a blog might also be regarded as shipping. You're also focusing on one gotcha while ignoring the other terrifying clauses here. Are you still using the spec for internal purposes if you are talking about it? IANAL but I strongly recommend any hobbyists or open source people steer the hell clear. These are terms for no engagement other than those willing to pay the anual fee.
- singpolyma3 2y ago
  Not conferred the rights to practice and ship, but if there's something which doesn't require such rights (such are private home tinkering) then not having rights conferred isn't an issue. Not saying that forgives this abysmal licensing regime of course.
denschub 2y ago
Lawyers have little issue defining blogs like mine as "with commercial interest". I have a side-business, so lawyers could make the argument that I use my blog as advertising. I have a Ko-Fi link in the bottom of one specific site, that's a commercial interest, too. Unless your blog is "I'm sharing holiday photos and nothing else", there's a lot of instances where it could be define as an outlet with commercial interests. And, ultimately, I have no desire to spend any time and money on fighting even completely invalid claims. I'd rather spend my time watching cat videos on YouTube instead.
- scotty79 2y ago
  But their licensing doesn't care about commercial interests or lack of there of. It only reserves right to charge you if you ship a product. And by product they most obviously mean a device and by ship they obviously mean sell (or gift, or possibly rent) to some customers. All of this sounds like a thunderstorm in a glass of water by people who read too many software licenses.
  - denschub 2y ago
    This is not what the license says.
    - scotty79 2y ago
      Yes. It's what it means.
      - denschub 2y ago
        It's baffling that some people here can read a sentence like > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications. And somehow think that the restrictions only apply when you "ship", but not when you "implement" or "practice".
        scotty79 2y ago

by IanCal 2y ago

lelanthran 2y ago

What do you think they mean by this: > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications.

scotty79 2y ago
That if you are a corporation that wants to use this tech in your products (devices) you are advised to join Thread Group as soon as possible because you'll be required to do that when you ship stuff anyways. Possibly compelled by court if you resist. They probably didn't expect interest from singular hobbyists, let alone hobbyists reading what they put out in the most uncharitable fashion. They have some clarifying to do if they decide that they care.
- ang_cire 2y ago
  You are ignoring "practice", which in this context means any kind of operational use, including things like research (they also specify "implementation" separately, to explicitly cover development of products). Practice here is as in "practice medicine", not "practice for tryouts".
  - scotty79 2y ago
    "practice" here probably means use in your business of manufacturing devices
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      > "practice" here probably means use in your business of manufacturing devices "probably"? It's a legal document that lists the things you may not do as vaguely and as broad as possible, and lists suing you as the first recourse in their remediation. It's unwise to err on the side of "allowed" instead of erring on the side of "disallowed".
      - scotty79 2y ago
        It's unwise to err on either side. The license doesn't contain phrase "you do not blog about Thread or we'll sue you". Because that's not what they meant, because it's ridiculous. There's only a singular threat in the license is here: "Failure to maintain active Thread Group membership while shipping Thread technology may result in legal action, including but not limited to licensing fees." It specifically mentions shipping.
        lelanthran 2y ago
        > It specifically mentions shipping. It specifically mentions "specifications" too, and I did quote that bit in a previous comment that you replied to, so I know you read it. How are we supposed to interpret "Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications." You are specifically, in the license, forbidden from implementing, practicing or shipping the SPECIFICATIONS. You literally cannot transfer any material or content that reveals the specifications.
        scotty79 2y ago
        Their intention for specifications are clearly stated in the earlier part of the document: Thread Group [...] grants you [...] license [...] to view, download, save, reproduce and use the Specification solely for your own internal purposes [...] you shall not: 1) loan, rent, lease, sublicense, sell, or permit others to use the Specification; 2) modify, adapt, translate, or otherwise change the Specification in any manner or create any derivative work of the Specification; [...] copy or reproduce the Specification except for backup or archival purposes in connection with your internal use; or 4) remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Specification. So yeah, you can't create derivative works from these specifications. Is a blog post about it a derivative work? Who knows. Probably not. Probably what they meant is you just can't create your own Threads 2.0 specification or create unauthorized translation of it (which although restrictive is reasonable because they just don't trust you to not mess things up). They clearly just want to remain the single source of truth for Thread specification on the net, to avoid ecosystem fragmentation and they intend to sustain themselves from licensing fees from commercial device manufacturers. Even with all their conditions normal rights to citation, critique, parody probably apply.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

You're talking to the question, but the answer is even more conservative & scary than the question posed, > are not conferred the IP rights required to practice and ship Thread technology, Under this, it sounds like one isn't even allowed to dabble with Thread without $7.5k/year membership. You aren't allowed to practice is the words they respond with, which seems far more constraining than shipping. Re-quoting the licensing agreement requires to download the spec, > view, download, save, reproduce and use the Specification solely for your own internal purposes > are not conferred the IP rights required to practice and ship Thread technology, > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications. So yeah, actually it seems like even doing hobbyist things by yourself & telling no one is still far more than Thread group allows. Fuck Thread! It's just so unbelievably shitty having the connected device technologies of our world be un-practiceable by mere mortals.

IanCal 2y ago
and ship.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  As a software engineer, our confidence that and means "both of these things" is high. I feel like you're taking quite a gamble doing that in law. Anyone posting to a blog might also be regarded as shipping. You're also focusing on one gotcha while ignoring the other terrifying clauses here. Are you still using the spec for internal purposes if you are talking about it? IANAL but I strongly recommend any hobbyists or open source people steer the hell clear. These are terms for no engagement other than those willing to pay the anual fee.
singpolyma3 2y ago
Not conferred the rights to practice and ship, but if there's something which doesn't require such rights (such are private home tinkering) then not having rights conferred isn't an issue. Not saying that forgives this abysmal licensing regime of course.

denschub 2y ago

Lawyers have little issue defining blogs like mine as "with commercial interest". I have a side-business, so lawyers could make the argument that I use my blog as advertising. I have a Ko-Fi link in the bottom of one specific site, that's a commercial interest, too. Unless your blog is "I'm sharing holiday photos and nothing else", there's a lot of instances where it could be define as an outlet with commercial interests. And, ultimately, I have no desire to spend any time and money on fighting even completely invalid claims. I'd rather spend my time watching cat videos on YouTube instead.

scotty79 2y ago
But their licensing doesn't care about commercial interests or lack of there of. It only reserves right to charge you if you ship a product. And by product they most obviously mean a device and by ship they obviously mean sell (or gift, or possibly rent) to some customers. All of this sounds like a thunderstorm in a glass of water by people who read too many software licenses.
- denschub 2y ago
  This is not what the license says.
  - scotty79 2y ago
    Yes. It's what it means.
    - denschub 2y ago
      It's baffling that some people here can read a sentence like > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications. And somehow think that the restrictions only apply when you "ship", but not when you "implement" or "practice".
      - scotty79 2y ago