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I wonder if this rant would've not existed if the Thread website said 'costs 7500$/yr to use' on the front page. To me, the issue isn't that someone wants peop

I wonder if this rant would've not existed if the Thread website said 'costs 7500$/yr to use' on the front page. To me, the issue isn't that someone wants people to pay to use their products, it's that they make you work to find out. There really ought to be price transparency for everything, mandated by governments. I'm a dreamer, maaan.

snthd 2y ago
At least we have wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol) >Thread is an IPv6-based, low-power mesh networking technology for Internet of things (IoT) products.[1] The Thread protocol specification is available at no cost; however, this requires agreement and continued adherence to an End-User License Agreement (EULA), which states that "Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications."[2]
- eviks 2y ago
  It's missing the most important part - the sticker price to shock you away from it
Terretta 2y ago
Given how much R&D expense Thread Group members have invested over the years developing its IP and the commercial value developers get from building on it, compared to, say, Apple's iOS APIs that developers can build on, it's interesting to consider the proportionality of Thread's annual licensing (USD 7500) being 75x Apple's dev license (USD 100). Either one of these is expensive or one of these is cheap.
- kragen 2y ago
  the solution to your false dilemma is that they are both unconscionably high, and additionally they are both unconscionable because you are at the mercy of the vendor
- josephg 2y ago
  Well, Apple’s R&D expenses are amortised over a lot more developers paying their Apple tax. Most specialist stuff is like this. For example, Braille displays and equipment for blind people is outrageously expensive compared to most consumer electronics. But the price tag makes sense because of how few units they sell. So it takes a higher markup on each unit to make money. Solidworks is simpler and more expensive than Windows because it has orders of magnitude fewer users.
  - Terretta 2y ago
    Yes, in cost plus instead of value pricing.
- grayhatter 2y ago
  > Either one of these is expensive or one of these is cheap. I'm unable to downvote this insane take so you get an angry reply instead. This is the dumbest thing I've read today^1. Charging someone to use knowledge and understanding is insane. Here let me teach you how to do this, now if you ever do anything like this, fuck you pay me? What?! Both charges are insane. The thread group could sell hardware implementations, or software libraries, that's an ethical way to fund Apple does sell access to it's platform. The extra fees for IP, what essentially is just understanding and know how is so stupid. And society would benefit greatly if everyone stopped pretending like thought crimes were convictable. ^1: which sounds meaningful until account that I've been up for 30m max
_factor 2y ago
It’s only $20/mo. Just don’t ask for how long.
jt2190 2y ago
Price transparency aside, do we really know if it’s a lot of work to ask them to waive the annual fee, or to provide a no-cost hobbies license? Why do we all assume that they intend to screw the little guy, and aren’t just a small under-resourced group who either hasn’t gotten around to hobby licenses, or hasn’t even realized it’s a thing that people want? Edit: Kudos to the author for actually reaching out to them. I do wonder what he means by “ask for clarification”… This sounds like the kind of email I dread receiving… vague, open ended, gotta call the lawyer? Did he just ask if they could waive the fee? > I contacted the Thread Group’s support email address on 2024-04-19 to request clarification on non-commercial Thread use.
- denschub 2y ago
  Here are the full texts of both emails I sent them: https://overengineer.dev/txt/2024-05-11-thread-group-emails/ https://overengineer.dev/txt/2024-05-11-thread-group-emails/ The second one to their press team sounds super presumptuous, sorry for that, but I found that you kinda have to talk to press teams in that way if you want to get /any/ response at al.
  - jt2190 2y ago
    Thanks for being so open and sharing this. I truly hope that this is an oversight on their part and not something intentional, and we're just looking for the right person who can "press the button" and grant you a license. Looking at https://www.threadgroup.org/thread-group https://www.threadgroup.org/thread-group, it seems like they already have some access for free ("Academic" and "Associate"). I'll have to review your blog post to see if you already reviewed those and what the specific issues were. Edit: I see you did mention their "Implementor" membership level, but I'm not sure which of thier points you need to "implement their IP" that the no-cost memberships lack... "Access to IP rights", maybe?
    - denschub 2y ago
      The page you linked to has a FAQ section. > Q: Is membership in the Thread Group alone, at any membership level, sufficient to gain and receive royalty-free intellectual property rights (IPR) for Thread technology? A: No, membership at any level is not sufficient to gain and receive royalty-free intellectual property rights (IPR) for Thread technology. and an Associate membership does not apply because I am not white-labeling or rebranding existing products.

snthd 2y ago

At least we have wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_(network_protocol) >Thread is an IPv6-based, low-power mesh networking technology for Internet of things (IoT) products.[1] The Thread protocol specification is available at no cost; however, this requires agreement and continued adherence to an End-User License Agreement (EULA), which states that "Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications."[2]

eviks 2y ago
It's missing the most important part - the sticker price to shock you away from it

Terretta 2y ago

Given how much R&D expense Thread Group members have invested over the years developing its IP and the commercial value developers get from building on it, compared to, say, Apple's iOS APIs that developers can build on, it's interesting to consider the proportionality of Thread's annual licensing (USD 7500) being 75x Apple's dev license (USD 100). Either one of these is expensive or one of these is cheap.

kragen 2y ago
the solution to your false dilemma is that they are both unconscionably high, and additionally they are both unconscionable because you are at the mercy of the vendor
josephg 2y ago
Well, Apple’s R&D expenses are amortised over a lot more developers paying their Apple tax. Most specialist stuff is like this. For example, Braille displays and equipment for blind people is outrageously expensive compared to most consumer electronics. But the price tag makes sense because of how few units they sell. So it takes a higher markup on each unit to make money. Solidworks is simpler and more expensive than Windows because it has orders of magnitude fewer users.
- Terretta 2y ago
  Yes, in cost plus instead of value pricing.
grayhatter 2y ago
> Either one of these is expensive or one of these is cheap. I'm unable to downvote this insane take so you get an angry reply instead. This is the dumbest thing I've read today^1. Charging someone to use knowledge and understanding is insane. Here let me teach you how to do this, now if you ever do anything like this, fuck you pay me? What?! Both charges are insane. The thread group could sell hardware implementations, or software libraries, that's an ethical way to fund Apple does sell access to it's platform. The extra fees for IP, what essentially is just understanding and know how is so stupid. And society would benefit greatly if everyone stopped pretending like thought crimes were convictable. ^1: which sounds meaningful until account that I've been up for 30m max

_factor 2y ago

It’s only $20/mo. Just don’t ask for how long.

jt2190 2y ago

Price transparency aside, do we really know if it’s a lot of work to ask them to waive the annual fee, or to provide a no-cost hobbies license? Why do we all assume that they intend to screw the little guy, and aren’t just a small under-resourced group who either hasn’t gotten around to hobby licenses, or hasn’t even realized it’s a thing that people want? Edit: Kudos to the author for actually reaching out to them. I do wonder what he means by “ask for clarification”… This sounds like the kind of email I dread receiving… vague, open ended, gotta call the lawyer? Did he just ask if they could waive the fee? > I contacted the Thread Group’s support email address on 2024-04-19 to request clarification on non-commercial Thread use.

denschub 2y ago
Here are the full texts of both emails I sent them: https://overengineer.dev/txt/2024-05-11-thread-group-emails/ https://overengineer.dev/txt/2024-05-11-thread-group-emails/ The second one to their press team sounds super presumptuous, sorry for that, but I found that you kinda have to talk to press teams in that way if you want to get /any/ response at al.
- jt2190 2y ago
  Thanks for being so open and sharing this. I truly hope that this is an oversight on their part and not something intentional, and we're just looking for the right person who can "press the button" and grant you a license. Looking at https://www.threadgroup.org/thread-group https://www.threadgroup.org/thread-group, it seems like they already have some access for free ("Academic" and "Associate"). I'll have to review your blog post to see if you already reviewed those and what the specific issues were. Edit: I see you did mention their "Implementor" membership level, but I'm not sure which of thier points you need to "implement their IP" that the no-cost memberships lack... "Access to IP rights", maybe?
  - denschub 2y ago
    The page you linked to has a FAQ section. > Q: Is membership in the Thread Group alone, at any membership level, sufficient to gain and receive royalty-free intellectual property rights (IPR) for Thread technology? A: No, membership at any level is not sufficient to gain and receive royalty-free intellectual property rights (IPR) for Thread technology. and an Associate membership does not apply because I am not white-labeling or rebranding existing products.