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> if you’re a hobbyist without access to some serious throwaway money to join the Thread Group, there is no way to use Thread legally Is this really true? I as

> if you’re a hobbyist without access to some serious throwaway money to join the Thread Group, there is no way to use Thread legally Is this really true? I assume the licensing legalese means patents, and patents don't apply to private tinkering unless there's commerce involved. More generally aside from hobby scope - The absurdity of the monopolies granted by the current patent regime are made obvious by this arrangement: Big companies that have patent portfolios to countersue with can use OpenThread freely, small businesses and startups can't. (Obviously it still sucks and is a major chilling effect)

IanCal 2y ago
The quoted part above is about shipping products too, so I don't understand why they are using that as an example about not being able to play around with something or write blog posts. Here's the FAQ question > What Would Prevent A Company From Shipping A Product Based On OpenThread Without Joining The Thread Group?
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Answer, also quotes in the post: > If developers choose not to join Thread Group and ship products using Thread technology, they are not conferred the IP rights required to practice and ship Thread technology, and may subject themselves to legal action, including but not limited to licensing fees. It feels like even sharing my designs run a major risk of landing me in trouble. This sounds catastrophically hostile to open source in general. If I ever want to make use of what I've built in any even remotely commercial setting, everything I've built feels liable to be infected & polluted with this copyright. I could rip out Threads & still not feel safe. I definitely can't sell a couple copies of this cool thing to other hobbyists on indiegogo. The terms of use essentially outlaw community. Yes, maybe hobbyists can play with this, but they cannot form communities, they cannot share wisdom, they can't sell boards to each other, they can't even talk about the protocol or spec on detail. So yeah, hobbyists arent expressly forbidden. But having any community of hobbyists seems fraught with difficulties. You can only hobbyist by yourself, discussing with no one. Fuck Threads.
  - IanCal 2y ago
    Hang on that's a huge leap. > Yes, maybe hobbyists can play with this, but they cannot form communities, they cannot share wisdom, they can't sell boards to each other, they can't even talk about the protocol or spec on detail. But it just says you can't ship products and talking isn't shipping a product. The only part I see there is what if you sell things built on it. Like sure it could be more open and sure having some small business exemption would be good but that's not the same as not being allowed to just make some stuff and talk about it.
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      What do you think they mean by this: > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications.
      - scotty79 2y ago
        That if you are a corporation that wants to use this tech in your products (devices) you are advised to join Thread Group as soon as possible because you'll be required to do that when you ship stuff anyways. Possibly compelled by court if you resist. They probably didn't expect interest from singular hobbyists, let alone hobbyists reading what they put out in the most uncharitable fashion. They have some clarifying to do if they decide that they care.
        ang_cire 2y ago
        You are ignoring "practice", which in this context means any kind of operational use, including things like research (they also specify "implementation" separately, to explicitly cover development of products). Practice here is as in "practice medicine", not "practice for tryouts".
        scotty79 2y ago
        "practice" here probably means use in your business of manufacturing devices
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > so I don't understand why they are using that as an example about not being able to play around with something or write blog posts. It's seems pretty clear-cut to me: Q: What Would Prevent A Company From Shipping A Product Based On OpenThread Without Joining The Thread Group? A: (roughly) You will be sued Now, what does the word "product" in "Shipping a product based on OpenThread" mean? A product is any (or some combination of) the following: 1. A devkit 2. A book 3. A blog post 4. Any hardware that uses Thread So, yeah, you can't write a tutorial for using Thread, or make a doorbell for your mum's house, or tell your friend how to read the protocol, or start up a /r/thread community to help each other use it. Looks pretty damned locked down to me, without at least the FRAND loopholes.
  - IanCal 2y ago
    Where is that definition of product from? Is that in their license agreement?
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      What is your definition of a product based on (from their license) "Thread technology and Thread Group specifications"? Why would a book, or tutorial, or blog post be excluded from the clause "Thread technology and Thread Group specifications"?
      - scotty79 2y ago
        Obviously a device because when hardware peopl say product they don't mean book or youtube video.
        ang_cire 2y ago
        These aren't "hardware people" writing the licenses, they're "legal people", i.e. lawyers.
        scotty79 2y ago
542458 2y ago
> patents don't apply to private tinkering unless there's commerce involved. While you’re unlikely to be sued for something you do in your basement that has no broader commercial or cultural impact, it’s not impossible. There is no private use exemption to patents. https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24148/can-i-build-something-for-personal-use-if-it-is-patented https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24148/can-i-build-so...
- samatman 2y ago
  This isn't 100% true, it's closer to 90% true. There is a narrowly-tailored "research exemption" to patents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption So "private tinkering" where you implement something patented in order to perform research is permitted, but not for one's own benefit, even privately. For the example we're discussing, implementing Thread on some IoT device in order to benchmark it in various ways is in-bounds, but you can't use that device to your own benefit, even privately in your own home.
  - eszed 2y ago
    Aye. And, as the sibling post points out, demonstrating that your benchmarking project qualifies for a Research Exemption could devolve into a lawyer-up situation.
- nostrademons 2y ago
  Something surprising that a couple lawyers have drilled into me: you can be sued for anything, regardless of whether it's illegal or not. The lawsuit is the discovery & decision process by which the courts decide whether your personal circumstances make it illegal. If the law is blatantly on your side you can get the lawsuit thrown out, but you still have to defend yourself, which includes the expense of hiring a lawyer. A corollary (and probably what the lawyers were getting at): not making yourself a target is more valuable than actually following the law. If you have money, keep it to yourself - some more unscrupulous actors will find some legal grey area you're operating in and sue you for it simply so they can force a settlement and get some of it. If you're doing something interesting (whether it's legal or not), keep it to yourself. If your interests are not aligned with someone else, gosh darnit, don't tell them or otherwise bring yourself to their attention. There is probably some lawsuit they can bring that would at least force an expensive court case and legal defense and make you want to settle to make it all go away. And once you are a target anyway, follow the law scrupulously. This is why big corporations invest billions in legal & compliance departments.

IanCal 2y ago

The quoted part above is about shipping products too, so I don't understand why they are using that as an example about not being able to play around with something or write blog posts. Here's the FAQ question > What Would Prevent A Company From Shipping A Product Based On OpenThread Without Joining The Thread Group?

jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Answer, also quotes in the post: > If developers choose not to join Thread Group and ship products using Thread technology, they are not conferred the IP rights required to practice and ship Thread technology, and may subject themselves to legal action, including but not limited to licensing fees. It feels like even sharing my designs run a major risk of landing me in trouble. This sounds catastrophically hostile to open source in general. If I ever want to make use of what I've built in any even remotely commercial setting, everything I've built feels liable to be infected & polluted with this copyright. I could rip out Threads & still not feel safe. I definitely can't sell a couple copies of this cool thing to other hobbyists on indiegogo. The terms of use essentially outlaw community. Yes, maybe hobbyists can play with this, but they cannot form communities, they cannot share wisdom, they can't sell boards to each other, they can't even talk about the protocol or spec on detail. So yeah, hobbyists arent expressly forbidden. But having any community of hobbyists seems fraught with difficulties. You can only hobbyist by yourself, discussing with no one. Fuck Threads.
- IanCal 2y ago
  Hang on that's a huge leap. > Yes, maybe hobbyists can play with this, but they cannot form communities, they cannot share wisdom, they can't sell boards to each other, they can't even talk about the protocol or spec on detail. But it just says you can't ship products and talking isn't shipping a product. The only part I see there is what if you sell things built on it. Like sure it could be more open and sure having some small business exemption would be good but that's not the same as not being allowed to just make some stuff and talk about it.
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    What do you think they mean by this: > Membership in Thread Group is necessary to implement, practice, and ship Thread technology and Thread Group specifications.
    - scotty79 2y ago
      That if you are a corporation that wants to use this tech in your products (devices) you are advised to join Thread Group as soon as possible because you'll be required to do that when you ship stuff anyways. Possibly compelled by court if you resist. They probably didn't expect interest from singular hobbyists, let alone hobbyists reading what they put out in the most uncharitable fashion. They have some clarifying to do if they decide that they care.
      - ang_cire 2y ago
        You are ignoring "practice", which in this context means any kind of operational use, including things like research (they also specify "implementation" separately, to explicitly cover development of products). Practice here is as in "practice medicine", not "practice for tryouts".
        scotty79 2y ago
        "practice" here probably means use in your business of manufacturing devices
lelanthran 2y ago
> so I don't understand why they are using that as an example about not being able to play around with something or write blog posts. It's seems pretty clear-cut to me: Q: What Would Prevent A Company From Shipping A Product Based On OpenThread Without Joining The Thread Group? A: (roughly) You will be sued Now, what does the word "product" in "Shipping a product based on OpenThread" mean? A product is any (or some combination of) the following: 1. A devkit 2. A book 3. A blog post 4. Any hardware that uses Thread So, yeah, you can't write a tutorial for using Thread, or make a doorbell for your mum's house, or tell your friend how to read the protocol, or start up a /r/thread community to help each other use it. Looks pretty damned locked down to me, without at least the FRAND loopholes.
- IanCal 2y ago
  Where is that definition of product from? Is that in their license agreement?
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    What is your definition of a product based on (from their license) "Thread technology and Thread Group specifications"? Why would a book, or tutorial, or blog post be excluded from the clause "Thread technology and Thread Group specifications"?
    - scotty79 2y ago
      Obviously a device because when hardware peopl say product they don't mean book or youtube video.
      - ang_cire 2y ago
        These aren't "hardware people" writing the licenses, they're "legal people", i.e. lawyers.
        scotty79 2y ago

542458 2y ago

> patents don't apply to private tinkering unless there's commerce involved. While you’re unlikely to be sued for something you do in your basement that has no broader commercial or cultural impact, it’s not impossible. There is no private use exemption to patents. https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24148/can-i-build-something-for-personal-use-if-it-is-patented https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/24148/can-i-build-so...

samatman 2y ago
This isn't 100% true, it's closer to 90% true. There is a narrowly-tailored "research exemption" to patents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption So "private tinkering" where you implement something patented in order to perform research is permitted, but not for one's own benefit, even privately. For the example we're discussing, implementing Thread on some IoT device in order to benchmark it in various ways is in-bounds, but you can't use that device to your own benefit, even privately in your own home.
- eszed 2y ago
  Aye. And, as the sibling post points out, demonstrating that your benchmarking project qualifies for a Research Exemption could devolve into a lawyer-up situation.
nostrademons 2y ago
Something surprising that a couple lawyers have drilled into me: you can be sued for anything, regardless of whether it's illegal or not. The lawsuit is the discovery & decision process by which the courts decide whether your personal circumstances make it illegal. If the law is blatantly on your side you can get the lawsuit thrown out, but you still have to defend yourself, which includes the expense of hiring a lawyer. A corollary (and probably what the lawyers were getting at): not making yourself a target is more valuable than actually following the law. If you have money, keep it to yourself - some more unscrupulous actors will find some legal grey area you're operating in and sue you for it simply so they can force a settlement and get some of it. If you're doing something interesting (whether it's legal or not), keep it to yourself. If your interests are not aligned with someone else, gosh darnit, don't tell them or otherwise bring yourself to their attention. There is probably some lawsuit they can bring that would at least force an expensive court case and legal defense and make you want to settle to make it all go away. And once you are a target anyway, follow the law scrupulously. This is why big corporations invest billions in legal & compliance departments.