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I anticipated this reply, either here or elsewhere, and was really hoping it wouldn't arrive. I do a lot of volunteer work too. Guess what? My decisions in tho

I anticipated this reply, either here or elsewhere, and was really hoping it wouldn't arrive. I do a lot of volunteer work too. Guess what? My decisions in those roles are not unimpeachable. Being a volunteer also does not mean you are owed anything, even gratitude. It's a thing you choose to do, and if you don't like doing it anymore, then you should stop doing it. Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints or all that unique as volunteers go. This is a bad decision. It deserves criticism and discussion. The volunteer status of package maintainership is irrelevant.

CooCooCaCha 2y ago
I share your frustration because comments like that show up in every thread about open source. By putting something out into the world you're creating connections with others. If people like what you've built and start to rely on it then that puts power into your hands, and any time you have power over others it should be wielded responsibly. Volunteering doesn't give people a pass to screw over others.
- otherme123 2y ago
  And who decides "responsible"? The mantainer made the decision of defaulting to no-network for safety reasons, that users can reverse with a flag. This sounds responsible enough for me. I bet that if a bug is found in the connection API and passwords leak, we would impale the head of the mantainer in a pike for not defaulting to safe mode, or to have connection at all.
  - nrabulinski 2y ago
    And the software authors made it clear that those features, even if compiled in, are disabled by default and the code never executes.
roenxi 2y ago
Connecting the internet and a password database together is one of those fundamentally bad ideas. This might well be an excellent technical decision. Although I agree with the thread root that this is a level of intervention that might justify some rebranding. > Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints or all that unique as volunteers go. If you want keepassx, you can go install it. If you want the Debian archive's version, install that. All the options are open to critique, but the average Debian maintainer is doing so much more good than the occasional bad decision that they get a lot of benefit-of-doubt on this sort of choice. And some reasonable expectations of respect.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >And some reasonable expectations of respect. Volunteers by definition do not (or at least should not) expect anything in return for their time. If you want respect as a so-called volunteer, you're not a volunteer. I've seen both good and bad package maintainers, too.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    > Volunteers by definition do not (or at least should not) expect anything in return for their time That isn't really true. For starters, paid volunteers are actually a thing that happens from time to time. Secondly; there would be no volunteers if they didn't get something for their time. It is just generally that something isn't money. Volunteers aren't expected to be selfless.
    - nrabulinski 2y ago
      If you’re getting paid you’re by definition not a volunteer. You may be getting some perks like volunteering at a convention giving you an entry pass for that convention, but as soon as you’re getting some other gains, be it monetary or not, you’re no longer a volunteer.
      - sternchenfee17 2y ago
        each year, my employer allows me to take a (paid) day off to do volunteering projects, e.g. going to soup kitchens. I get paid for that day regularly by my employer. The soup kitchen doesn't have to pay a dime. Am I a volunteer?
        ranger_danger 2y ago
        to the soup kitchen, yes, you are, if they aren't paying you.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        > If you’re getting paid you’re by definition not a volunteer. You are technically incorrect. The US army, for example, is manned more or less entirely with paid volunteers. And while many volunteers may not get formal compensation, they have to expect to get something out of the experience. Otherwise they would not do it. The subset of volunteers who are in it purely for a biblically pure sense of charity is tiny. And there is no expectation that Debian developers are motivated by some cultish wish to do good for the sake of free software. They're allowed to be motivated by whatever motivates them to do good with free software. Even if it is money.
makeitdouble 2y ago
I agree volunteering doesn't mean decisions can't be criticized, but the notion of duty towards the user oversteps that. The same way maintainers make their decisions, the community is free to deal with it in any way shape or form. As long as money or malice or recklessness isn't involved, people should be free to do what they think is right, and the current maintainers aren't putting any roadblocks to prevent others from using the work in the way they want.

CooCooCaCha 2y ago

I share your frustration because comments like that show up in every thread about open source. By putting something out into the world you're creating connections with others. If people like what you've built and start to rely on it then that puts power into your hands, and any time you have power over others it should be wielded responsibly. Volunteering doesn't give people a pass to screw over others.

otherme123 2y ago
And who decides "responsible"? The mantainer made the decision of defaulting to no-network for safety reasons, that users can reverse with a flag. This sounds responsible enough for me. I bet that if a bug is found in the connection API and passwords leak, we would impale the head of the mantainer in a pike for not defaulting to safe mode, or to have connection at all.
- nrabulinski 2y ago
  And the software authors made it clear that those features, even if compiled in, are disabled by default and the code never executes.

roenxi 2y ago

Connecting the internet and a password database together is one of those fundamentally bad ideas. This might well be an excellent technical decision. Although I agree with the thread root that this is a level of intervention that might justify some rebranding. > Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints or all that unique as volunteers go. If you want keepassx, you can go install it. If you want the Debian archive's version, install that. All the options are open to critique, but the average Debian maintainer is doing so much more good than the occasional bad decision that they get a lot of benefit-of-doubt on this sort of choice. And some reasonable expectations of respect.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>And some reasonable expectations of respect. Volunteers by definition do not (or at least should not) expect anything in return for their time. If you want respect as a so-called volunteer, you're not a volunteer. I've seen both good and bad package maintainers, too.
- roenxi 2y ago
  > Volunteers by definition do not (or at least should not) expect anything in return for their time That isn't really true. For starters, paid volunteers are actually a thing that happens from time to time. Secondly; there would be no volunteers if they didn't get something for their time. It is just generally that something isn't money. Volunteers aren't expected to be selfless.
  - nrabulinski 2y ago
    If you’re getting paid you’re by definition not a volunteer. You may be getting some perks like volunteering at a convention giving you an entry pass for that convention, but as soon as you’re getting some other gains, be it monetary or not, you’re no longer a volunteer.
    - sternchenfee17 2y ago
      each year, my employer allows me to take a (paid) day off to do volunteering projects, e.g. going to soup kitchens. I get paid for that day regularly by my employer. The soup kitchen doesn't have to pay a dime. Am I a volunteer?
      - ranger_danger 2y ago
        to the soup kitchen, yes, you are, if they aren't paying you.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      > If you’re getting paid you’re by definition not a volunteer. You are technically incorrect. The US army, for example, is manned more or less entirely with paid volunteers. And while many volunteers may not get formal compensation, they have to expect to get something out of the experience. Otherwise they would not do it. The subset of volunteers who are in it purely for a biblically pure sense of charity is tiny. And there is no expectation that Debian developers are motivated by some cultish wish to do good for the sake of free software. They're allowed to be motivated by whatever motivates them to do good with free software. Even if it is money.

makeitdouble 2y ago

I agree volunteering doesn't mean decisions can't be criticized, but the notion of duty towards the user oversteps that. The same way maintainers make their decisions, the community is free to deal with it in any way shape or form. As long as money or malice or recklessness isn't involved, people should be free to do what they think is right, and the current maintainers aren't putting any roadblocks to prevent others from using the work in the way they want.