5 ms·

Its still too early, IMO. Prices aren't that cheap yet and the cost of living, while cheap, hasn't plummeted. Yes, there are a lot of people out of work, but sp

Its still too early, IMO. Prices aren't that cheap yet and the cost of living, while cheap, hasn't plummeted. Yes, there are a lot of people out of work, but speaking with a few folks in the last 6 months they say it is still hard to fill IT jobs. Wait until (if) Spain exits, then capitalize. But remember, the work ethic here is not the same as elsewhere. And people who don't fit that mold are leaving the country. If it doesn't exit... Hard to see what will happen here.

tluyben2 14y ago
That's what I see; we tried to establish a developer team in Spain and we found out that good people went to Germany and a large portion of the remainder don't actually don't want to work. We are talking university level CS people. I was amazed by this. Even when I met one who was willing to work he wanted a contract for life and part time. I know a lot of kids there who finished school, live with their parents on (some kind of; I'm not totally clear on this; I know they receive a few $100/month) benefits. I'm from the Netherlands and this concept is alien to me. None of the people from the schools I went to would consider living off benefits unless very ill or something like that; the ones who did not get a regular job opened companies. Probably it depends on the part of Spain but it was a strange experience.
- mipapage 14y ago
  I'm Canadian and have lived here (Spain) for 10 years. I think it is partly a generational thing. If you find a mid-30's developer with kids, my experience is they will take what they can get. The trouble is, as you said, many have left (I know a few now in Germany) and others have simply created their own little space/niche of work. The younger gen seems exactly as you say: back to home, parents footing the cost (I know one guy whose parent's are paying the loan on his BMW!). At some point the pain is going to become too much and the "ni-ni"s, as they call them, are going to have to do something. Their country has already been sold, what next?
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    It might be true about the mid-30s for developers, but as anecdote: I read in a local newspaper about a small taxi company almost going bankrupt and we needed a taxi for quite a bit of a ride. So I called them, asked if they had time for a half day ride; they guy sounded happy and said they had. Then I told him where we live. No that was too far away (it isn't; it's a little more than half an hour drive from him); I told him we would pay for it. But it was a definite no; too far he wouldn't do it. I see that mentality everywhere; builders (who are all out of a job now), pool cleaners, car repair etc. If something is slightly out of the comfort zone it's usually a no. How bad does it need to become before people see it doesn't work that way (anymore; obviously before 2008, if you were lucky and not too greedy, money was rather 'free' for a lot of people; for instance the local bar owner didn't have to work at all; his bar was packed every day before 2008 so he hired people, put the profit into building; unfortunately he got out too late and there you go; hard working which he 'doesn't do'. Rather live in poverty.).
    - mipapage 14y ago
      The majority of the people here don't get it yet; how much pain will have to pass to sort this out. Its been a windfall for the last 10 (to 20) years, and then it is just too easy to blame the government. I wish some form of serious, respected Spanish person, who isn't in politics, would stand up and stir the people into action as what happened in Iceland. Its sad to see a country rotting out from its core, the anger yet the complacency, the loud voices but muted actions...
      - notspanishflu 14y ago
        The traditional way of a leader taking command and saying 'we can fix the problem sticking together, working together, with a common goal, etc' is almost impossible in Spain because we're a broken nation. We have a huge problem with nationalism (specially in Catalonia, Basque Country, and some testing in Galicia) and in the autonomous communities (regions) without that kind of problem --like Andalusia or Valencia-- the political caste is a real tribal mafia. Of course, in the nationalist zones the political caste is a mafia as well. 'The Caste' is the only common denominator in Spain. Adding more emotion to the Spanish puzzle, Catalonia is trying to annex Andorra, a piece of Southern France, Valencia, and the Balearic Islands. Basque Country is trying to annex Navarre, and another piece of Southern France. Worth mentioning the very different Tax system in every region (in some places with huge privileges).
- samuel 14y ago
  I'm very surprised about your experience. Unemployment hasn't hit that hard the IT sector,and finding good people ain't easy, but people willing to work on IT? There are plenty and doing very long hours...
  - mipapage 14y ago
    I would guess it depends on the market you are after. I know Java devs working long hard hours and people who want to hire them that cannot find anyone. But I'm guessing those folks aren't the young crowd.
- ABS 14y ago
  my experience in the Netherlands is "odd": people work, no question about that but most of the ones I know work 4-day weeks (good for work-life balance) and there are interesting benefits for people who don't work. I'm sure it's not exact but I met people who had a high paying job, decided to leave/were fired and immediately got unemployment benefits from the government while they were looking for a new job. Which is cool but mmmm maybe premature? If you had a high paying job for 3 years why should the government immediately step in giving you something like €500/month while you are looking for a new one? kinda removes the pressure to find a new one from day 1, doesn't it?
  - tluyben2 14y ago
    Yeah you are right, however as I have seen, most people I have ever talked to in NL do not like getting benefits. If they are able to work, they do feel it their responsibility to do so. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but for people say they are on benefits is something they are ashamed off. Which is a larger stimulation than money for most.
    - ABS 14y ago
      fair enough. As I wrote there is no question about the fact they work (I might not be crazy about the rhythm but that's a different thing and changes from company to company).
  - vidarh 14y ago
    > If you had a high paying job for 3 years why should the government immediately step in giving you something like €500/month while you are looking for a new one? kinda removes the pressure to find a new one from day 1, doesn't it? "The government" here is the tax payers, including the person in question, who has decided to pay into an insurance system exactly to avoid that pressure and give people a chance to look for a job without panicking over how they'll be able to pay the mortgage next month. I'm Norwegian - the Norwegian system is similar - and was shocked when I moved to the UK, where unemployment benefits are a joke (still better than most US states) and notice periods are ridiculously short by my standard (in the UK 1 months notice is pretty standard; in Norway it's 3 months). In Norway you also get most of your salary for the first 12 months or so, I believe (it's been 12 years since I moved out, so not kept up to date how it's changed) so for most people it's way above €500/month). If you look at unemployment in these countries when the economy is good, it's still usually low - the people who don't want to work will eventually be moved over to the regular benefits system which is far stricter and with lower amounts, and the people who do want to work rarely see unemployment benefits as some kind of paid holiday, but want to get back in work ASAP. Especially since a gap in employment will be something prospective employers will see as a worrying sign, so people are acutely aware that the longer they wait the harder it will be to get a new job at the same level. And when times are not good is exactly when these benefits are important: We pay or dues to have a safety net in particular for those situations when it's not our fault we can't get a new job right away.

tluyben2 14y ago

That's what I see; we tried to establish a developer team in Spain and we found out that good people went to Germany and a large portion of the remainder don't actually don't want to work. We are talking university level CS people. I was amazed by this. Even when I met one who was willing to work he wanted a contract for life and part time. I know a lot of kids there who finished school, live with their parents on (some kind of; I'm not totally clear on this; I know they receive a few $100/month) benefits. I'm from the Netherlands and this concept is alien to me. None of the people from the schools I went to would consider living off benefits unless very ill or something like that; the ones who did not get a regular job opened companies. Probably it depends on the part of Spain but it was a strange experience.

mipapage 14y ago
I'm Canadian and have lived here (Spain) for 10 years. I think it is partly a generational thing. If you find a mid-30's developer with kids, my experience is they will take what they can get. The trouble is, as you said, many have left (I know a few now in Germany) and others have simply created their own little space/niche of work. The younger gen seems exactly as you say: back to home, parents footing the cost (I know one guy whose parent's are paying the loan on his BMW!). At some point the pain is going to become too much and the "ni-ni"s, as they call them, are going to have to do something. Their country has already been sold, what next?
- tluyben2 14y ago
  It might be true about the mid-30s for developers, but as anecdote: I read in a local newspaper about a small taxi company almost going bankrupt and we needed a taxi for quite a bit of a ride. So I called them, asked if they had time for a half day ride; they guy sounded happy and said they had. Then I told him where we live. No that was too far away (it isn't; it's a little more than half an hour drive from him); I told him we would pay for it. But it was a definite no; too far he wouldn't do it. I see that mentality everywhere; builders (who are all out of a job now), pool cleaners, car repair etc. If something is slightly out of the comfort zone it's usually a no. How bad does it need to become before people see it doesn't work that way (anymore; obviously before 2008, if you were lucky and not too greedy, money was rather 'free' for a lot of people; for instance the local bar owner didn't have to work at all; his bar was packed every day before 2008 so he hired people, put the profit into building; unfortunately he got out too late and there you go; hard working which he 'doesn't do'. Rather live in poverty.).
  - mipapage 14y ago
    The majority of the people here don't get it yet; how much pain will have to pass to sort this out. Its been a windfall for the last 10 (to 20) years, and then it is just too easy to blame the government. I wish some form of serious, respected Spanish person, who isn't in politics, would stand up and stir the people into action as what happened in Iceland. Its sad to see a country rotting out from its core, the anger yet the complacency, the loud voices but muted actions...
    - notspanishflu 14y ago
      The traditional way of a leader taking command and saying 'we can fix the problem sticking together, working together, with a common goal, etc' is almost impossible in Spain because we're a broken nation. We have a huge problem with nationalism (specially in Catalonia, Basque Country, and some testing in Galicia) and in the autonomous communities (regions) without that kind of problem --like Andalusia or Valencia-- the political caste is a real tribal mafia. Of course, in the nationalist zones the political caste is a mafia as well. 'The Caste' is the only common denominator in Spain. Adding more emotion to the Spanish puzzle, Catalonia is trying to annex Andorra, a piece of Southern France, Valencia, and the Balearic Islands. Basque Country is trying to annex Navarre, and another piece of Southern France. Worth mentioning the very different Tax system in every region (in some places with huge privileges).
samuel 14y ago
I'm very surprised about your experience. Unemployment hasn't hit that hard the IT sector,and finding good people ain't easy, but people willing to work on IT? There are plenty and doing very long hours...
- mipapage 14y ago
  I would guess it depends on the market you are after. I know Java devs working long hard hours and people who want to hire them that cannot find anyone. But I'm guessing those folks aren't the young crowd.
ABS 14y ago
my experience in the Netherlands is "odd": people work, no question about that but most of the ones I know work 4-day weeks (good for work-life balance) and there are interesting benefits for people who don't work. I'm sure it's not exact but I met people who had a high paying job, decided to leave/were fired and immediately got unemployment benefits from the government while they were looking for a new job. Which is cool but mmmm maybe premature? If you had a high paying job for 3 years why should the government immediately step in giving you something like €500/month while you are looking for a new one? kinda removes the pressure to find a new one from day 1, doesn't it?
- tluyben2 14y ago
  Yeah you are right, however as I have seen, most people I have ever talked to in NL do not like getting benefits. If they are able to work, they do feel it their responsibility to do so. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but for people say they are on benefits is something they are ashamed off. Which is a larger stimulation than money for most.
  - ABS 14y ago
    fair enough. As I wrote there is no question about the fact they work (I might not be crazy about the rhythm but that's a different thing and changes from company to company).
- vidarh 14y ago
  > If you had a high paying job for 3 years why should the government immediately step in giving you something like €500/month while you are looking for a new one? kinda removes the pressure to find a new one from day 1, doesn't it? "The government" here is the tax payers, including the person in question, who has decided to pay into an insurance system exactly to avoid that pressure and give people a chance to look for a job without panicking over how they'll be able to pay the mortgage next month. I'm Norwegian - the Norwegian system is similar - and was shocked when I moved to the UK, where unemployment benefits are a joke (still better than most US states) and notice periods are ridiculously short by my standard (in the UK 1 months notice is pretty standard; in Norway it's 3 months). In Norway you also get most of your salary for the first 12 months or so, I believe (it's been 12 years since I moved out, so not kept up to date how it's changed) so for most people it's way above €500/month). If you look at unemployment in these countries when the economy is good, it's still usually low - the people who don't want to work will eventually be moved over to the regular benefits system which is far stricter and with lower amounts, and the people who do want to work rarely see unemployment benefits as some kind of paid holiday, but want to get back in work ASAP. Especially since a gap in employment will be something prospective employers will see as a worrying sign, so people are acutely aware that the longer they wait the harder it will be to get a new job at the same level. And when times are not good is exactly when these benefits are important: We pay or dues to have a safety net in particular for those situations when it's not our fault we can't get a new job right away.