4 ms·

> The law is simple: the price you see is the price you pay Not true when you still have to tip.

by re-thc 2y ago

AndyNemmity 2y ago
You don't have to tip.
- yareal 2y ago
  You don't. However, not tipping in the current system makes you an asshole. In a perfect world tipping wouldn't be required, but we don't live there right now, and until then all you're doing by not tipping is hitting some working class person in their pocketbook.
derwiki 2y ago
You don’t have to tip, you just normally do. I had one abysmal experience waiting 90 minutes without our waitress even checking in on us, so I didn’t tip.
- manuelabeledo 2y ago
  I'm curious about where one draws the line. A "tip" has gone from some extra cash for an unexpectedly great job, to essentially expected.
- Detrytus 2y ago
  Except you have to tip, because tipping is baked into the laws in the US. Tipped workers have a minimum wage of 1/3 of the regular one. Not tipping even the minimum, say, 12% is basically a crime.
  - isoprophlex 2y ago
    Or, you could argue that the existence of such low minimum wages are the true crime, because now you have this shitty Nash equilibrium where you must beg for tips because everyone else does. "Buy beer at our place. Pay us 5 units of currency and we will get you this beer." There's absolutely zero reason for things to be more complicated than this.
  - ozzcer 2y ago
    For the employer, not the customer.
  - jgwil2 2y ago
    They are legally required to make up the difference if the tips don't equal or exceed the normal minimum wage.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  40 minutes after being seated is my limit before I walk out or whenever someone seated after me is served first. Let them eat the cost of their poor service.
Retric 2y ago
Many people don’t tip, and tippers are subsidizing those assholes via lower menu prices.
- superkuh 2y ago
  Nope. Their employers are not paying them full wage. That's the problem. Tippers are subsidizing the restaurant owners and enabling the practice while feeling righteous about their destructive behavior. Of course the best behavior is to completely avoid any place of business that runs on tipping when possible.
  - Retric 2y ago
    You didn’t counter my point. Restaurant X outlaws tipping and raises prices to enable wait staff to make the same income. Now non tippers are paying more money and tippers pay less.
    - superkuh 2y ago
      Yes, you're right. I didn't counter that point because it was immaterial (of course the cost of the meal has to be paid). I was countering your assertion that not tipping made people assholes by pointing out the destructive and unethical effects of tipping. If you grew up under an unethical system and had to muddle through it it is not honor to try to force the same broken system on all others just because you endured painful experiences. It's nasty.
      - Retric 2y ago
        I boycott tipping restaurants on ethical grounds. Voluntarily exploiting a broken system for your personal benefit makes you an asshole. This isn’t the days of slavery where buying food required you to support an unethical system, you can go to a non tipping fast food joint, cook your own food, etc.
stronglikedan 2y ago
If you live in a tipping society, you should tip (for services like being waited on). As others have said, you don't have to, but that makes you the <explicative>.
- swores 2y ago
  Is there anyone who thinks it's actually a better system than European-style tipping (i.e. an entirely optional way to thank people for particularly good service) rather than just a necessity considering the system is what it is? As a Brit I do always tip when visiting the US, because I understand the implications of not doing so, but I've never understood why people on both sides of the equation (tippers and tippees) aren't lobbying politicians to change it such that menu items are priced the amount you'll actually have to pay - and yes, I feel the same way about VAT not being included in the labelled price, but that's been discussed in a different set of comments higher up the thread - and so that workers are paid enough to live on without getting any tips. And then they can choose whether or not to be extra friendly or to go above and beyond their responsibilities in the hope that people will feel they deserve a tip as an extra bonus on top. I can't remember ever hearing anyone in favour of USA-style tipping for any reason other than it being the system they're used to, so would be interested if anyone does have a different argument for it.
  - jgwil2 2y ago
    There would be winners and losers if we switched systems, as with any change. The winners would be consumers and workers in lower-end restaurants where tips are generally small. The losers would be restaurant owners and workers in higher-end restaurants who make good money from tips under the current system. Right now, the potential losers are a lot more vocal and engaged than the potential winners (the system is shitty but not so shitty that most consumers get worked up about it, and low-wage workers just don't have a lot of political power).
    - swores 2y ago
      Couldn't the higher-end / more expensive places just put their prices up by x% the same as a low-end place? Is the fear that if both cheap and expensive places moved tipping to higher prices (as an example let's say every single restaurant just raised menu prices by 15%) then more people would choose to go cheaper than do in the current situation of not thinking about accurate total cost until it comes to paying the tip after the meal? I know we all have cognitive biases so it's possible something like that would be the case, but from a purely logical point of view it seems that if people are happy to pay $500 per person for a meal and to tip $100 on top of that, then they should also be happy to pay $600 for a meal that doesn't need tipping, just the same as for meals that cost $15, and I feel that if it were a universal change (ie not just a single restaurant announcing "no tipping here" but a national or at least state-wide law) then there wouldn't be a huge amount of people chenging from visiting expensive to cheap places. > "winners and losers if we switched systems, as with any change" With many, even most, changes that's literally a requirement of the change - with tax changes that keep the total tax revenue the same you have to have some paying more in order to have others paying less. Or if the change is to raise more total tax revenue to fund more social benefits, some tax payers need to pay more in order for some people to get more help. Etc. But in this case the only losers would come from other people acting on illogical cognitive biases (with the exception of people who currently choose not to tip, or to undertip, who would then be forced to pay the real amount - but surely those people aren't a significant lobbying group, not a sympathetic group that others feel need protecting). Unless I'm missing some part of the equation and there is actually a reason higher-end place for necessarily do worse under a system where tips are included in the sticker price?

> The law is simple: the price you see is the price you pay Not true when you still have to tip.

by re-thc 2y ago

> The law is simple: the price you see is the price you pay Not true when you still have to tip.

AndyNemmity 2y ago

You don't have to tip.

yareal 2y ago
You don't. However, not tipping in the current system makes you an asshole. In a perfect world tipping wouldn't be required, but we don't live there right now, and until then all you're doing by not tipping is hitting some working class person in their pocketbook.

derwiki 2y ago

You don’t have to tip, you just normally do. I had one abysmal experience waiting 90 minutes without our waitress even checking in on us, so I didn’t tip.

manuelabeledo 2y ago
I'm curious about where one draws the line. A "tip" has gone from some extra cash for an unexpectedly great job, to essentially expected.
Detrytus 2y ago
Except you have to tip, because tipping is baked into the laws in the US. Tipped workers have a minimum wage of 1/3 of the regular one. Not tipping even the minimum, say, 12% is basically a crime.
- isoprophlex 2y ago
  Or, you could argue that the existence of such low minimum wages are the true crime, because now you have this shitty Nash equilibrium where you must beg for tips because everyone else does. "Buy beer at our place. Pay us 5 units of currency and we will get you this beer." There's absolutely zero reason for things to be more complicated than this.
- ozzcer 2y ago
  For the employer, not the customer.
- jgwil2 2y ago
  They are legally required to make up the difference if the tips don't equal or exceed the normal minimum wage.
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
40 minutes after being seated is my limit before I walk out or whenever someone seated after me is served first. Let them eat the cost of their poor service.

Retric 2y ago

Many people don’t tip, and tippers are subsidizing those assholes via lower menu prices.

superkuh 2y ago
Nope. Their employers are not paying them full wage. That's the problem. Tippers are subsidizing the restaurant owners and enabling the practice while feeling righteous about their destructive behavior. Of course the best behavior is to completely avoid any place of business that runs on tipping when possible.
- Retric 2y ago
  You didn’t counter my point. Restaurant X outlaws tipping and raises prices to enable wait staff to make the same income. Now non tippers are paying more money and tippers pay less.
  - superkuh 2y ago
    Yes, you're right. I didn't counter that point because it was immaterial (of course the cost of the meal has to be paid). I was countering your assertion that not tipping made people assholes by pointing out the destructive and unethical effects of tipping. If you grew up under an unethical system and had to muddle through it it is not honor to try to force the same broken system on all others just because you endured painful experiences. It's nasty.
    - Retric 2y ago
      I boycott tipping restaurants on ethical grounds. Voluntarily exploiting a broken system for your personal benefit makes you an asshole. This isn’t the days of slavery where buying food required you to support an unethical system, you can go to a non tipping fast food joint, cook your own food, etc.

stronglikedan 2y ago

If you live in a tipping society, you should tip (for services like being waited on). As others have said, you don't have to, but that makes you the <explicative>.

swores 2y ago
Is there anyone who thinks it's actually a better system than European-style tipping (i.e. an entirely optional way to thank people for particularly good service) rather than just a necessity considering the system is what it is? As a Brit I do always tip when visiting the US, because I understand the implications of not doing so, but I've never understood why people on both sides of the equation (tippers and tippees) aren't lobbying politicians to change it such that menu items are priced the amount you'll actually have to pay - and yes, I feel the same way about VAT not being included in the labelled price, but that's been discussed in a different set of comments higher up the thread - and so that workers are paid enough to live on without getting any tips. And then they can choose whether or not to be extra friendly or to go above and beyond their responsibilities in the hope that people will feel they deserve a tip as an extra bonus on top. I can't remember ever hearing anyone in favour of USA-style tipping for any reason other than it being the system they're used to, so would be interested if anyone does have a different argument for it.
- jgwil2 2y ago
  There would be winners and losers if we switched systems, as with any change. The winners would be consumers and workers in lower-end restaurants where tips are generally small. The losers would be restaurant owners and workers in higher-end restaurants who make good money from tips under the current system. Right now, the potential losers are a lot more vocal and engaged than the potential winners (the system is shitty but not so shitty that most consumers get worked up about it, and low-wage workers just don't have a lot of political power).
  - swores 2y ago
    Couldn't the higher-end / more expensive places just put their prices up by x% the same as a low-end place? Is the fear that if both cheap and expensive places moved tipping to higher prices (as an example let's say every single restaurant just raised menu prices by 15%) then more people would choose to go cheaper than do in the current situation of not thinking about accurate total cost until it comes to paying the tip after the meal? I know we all have cognitive biases so it's possible something like that would be the case, but from a purely logical point of view it seems that if people are happy to pay $500 per person for a meal and to tip $100 on top of that, then they should also be happy to pay $600 for a meal that doesn't need tipping, just the same as for meals that cost $15, and I feel that if it were a universal change (ie not just a single restaurant announcing "no tipping here" but a national or at least state-wide law) then there wouldn't be a huge amount of people chenging from visiting expensive to cheap places. > "winners and losers if we switched systems, as with any change" With many, even most, changes that's literally a requirement of the change - with tax changes that keep the total tax revenue the same you have to have some paying more in order to have others paying less. Or if the change is to raise more total tax revenue to fund more social benefits, some tax payers need to pay more in order for some people to get more help. Etc. But in this case the only losers would come from other people acting on illogical cognitive biases (with the exception of people who currently choose not to tip, or to undertip, who would then be forced to pay the real amount - but surely those people aren't a significant lobbying group, not a sympathetic group that others feel need protecting). Unless I'm missing some part of the equation and there is actually a reason higher-end place for necessarily do worse under a system where tips are included in the sticker price?