4 ms·

Everywhere else you don't know what you pay for a cup of coffee and what you pay in taxes to have a right to buy it.

noodlesUK 2y ago
Yeah you do, it's itemised on the receipt/invoice. You're legally required to break it down and provide a receipt so that business customers are able to correctly account for VAT. The only difference is which price goes on the tag/menu. I've heard this argument loads of times in the US, and it's clearly based on a belief that taxes should add friction so people understand how expensive they are. Most other countries have gone the other way and decided that transparent sticker pricing is more important than people understanding that their taxes are separate from the price of goods.
Tor3 2y ago
Incorrect. In, say, Europe, the final price is on the label and that's what you pay, the receipt lists the individual parts (core price, value added tax etc). And in Japan too - I'm looking at a receipt right now.
- exe34 2y ago
  Not only that, no tipping. Wages are negotiated between employees and employers, customers have no obligations in it.
- shagie 2y ago
  https://www.today.com/food/restaurant-surcharges-t263507 https://www.today.com/food/restaurant-surcharges-t263507 > In Milan, in 2008, his bill at a pizzeria included a charge for napkins. “Who eats pizza without using at least one napkin?” he asked, but was summarily told that the restaurant incurs a cost to provide linens. “I’m still not sure why I wasn’t charged for sitting on a chair or using my utensils to eat my food, since these items also require costs to maintain,” he said, only half jokingly. > Two years later, in Florence, he actually was charged for the chair he was sitting in, or more specifically, the orientation of his chair. “My chair faced the piazza and, apparently, only a limited number of chairs had that view.” Even though he and his dining companion ordered more or less the same dish, Britton’s tab was a couple Euros more. He recalled: “The owners felt that it was necessary to charge more for the ‘exclusive’ experience.”
  - baobun 2y ago
    I can assure you crap like this would be just as prevalent, nontransparent and unenforced regardless of VAT and pricing rules. It wouldn't actually pass already. Besides, I'm sure there are stories of foreign tourists being ripped of by unscrupulous businesses in the US too, if you ask around enough. For whatever reason, tourist hotspots in Italy have no shortage of unscrupulous business owners. If you've ever been to Rome in high season without a local guide, you either know what I mean or have some next-level karma cashed in.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kstrauser 2y ago
  How does that work for online shopping? Do you put your location in at the start? Someone else mentioned online shops and it never occurred to me before now to wonder how to implement that.
  - Tor3 2y ago
    VAT varies across countries but not inside countries (except that there may be a different VAT for, say, foodstuff than other items, or services). For online shopping in EU you pay the VAT of the destination (W. You select your location and you'll (normally) see "your" price, and in any case you'll always see "including VAT" mentioned.
giansegato 2y ago
that's not true. you have it written explicitly in the final check. you just don't have to do the mental gymnastics of figuring out how much you'll pay before ordering, which is absolutely absurd
- darkwater 2y ago
  The only "good side" of having price sticker without tax is that taxes can change as they wish and it cannot be used as an excuse to change the price anyway. It's not that common but sometimes governments do apply VAT changes and usually sellers uses it to push prices up more, because people are already expecting it. Or if the VAT goes down, they don't reduce the final price that much. But overall, as an European, I prefer how we do it.
baobun 2y ago
Huh? It's typically stated on receipts, by law.
RUnconcerned 2y ago
Of course we do, the taxes are listed in the receipt. We just know how much we are paying ahead of time.
Freak_NL 2y ago
Mostly because, and this is the kicker, that does not matter to the vast majority of people buying coffee. If I buy a cup of coffee with a listed price of €2, I pay €2. I know that 9% of that is value added tax (here in the Netherlands), and the receipt will show that too — if I care, which I usually don't. Value added taxes are pretty much a fact of life. I know it's there, and there is absolutely no need to constantly bug me about them by doing funny stuff with the pricing; just show me what I have to pay at the till.
- Retric 2y ago
  Companies are legally required to break out VAT taxes on a bill because it’s a value added tax so it matters if something is an end product like a car or something request to make that end product. Basically if you buy a PC and the VAT on that sale was 200$ then the company selling you the item might send in 50$ and receipts for 150$ in VAT on items they used to manufacture that PC. Without that exception there’s a huge incentive to vertically integrate manufacturing which would have negative economic consequences.
  - Freak_NL 2y ago
    So? The receipt still shows the VAT amount, as required. This is not a problem.
    - Retric 2y ago
      I was trying to clarify for anyone who might misunderstand your comment. It’s fine not to look at a receipt for the details, but I felt someone reading your comment may not realize it was available and you just didn’t look at it. You included a “and the receipt will show that too” but that’s the kind of thing people gloss over.
      - exe34 2y ago
        To be fair, if people will gloss over a random part of an answer, they'll gloss over a random part of another answer too.
shagie 2y ago
You will need to have different prices on the drive through and dine in (and another for to go even if order at the dine in register). https://www.taxjar.com/blog/food/sales-tax-by-state-to-go-restaurant-orders https://www.taxjar.com/blog/food/sales-tax-by-state-to-go-re... https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/restaurant-owners/ https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/restaurant-owners/ - and in particular https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/lawguides/vol1/sutr/1603.html https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/lawguides/vol1/sutr/1603.html
Sindisil 2y ago
Which is why it should be mandatory to show at least three numbers on price labels: product or service price, tax (optionally split by taxing authority), and final cost. Fees are different from taxes in that they're not mandated and the customer has no direct way to affect them.

Yeah you do, it's itemised on the receipt/invoice. You're legally required to break it down and provide a receipt so that business customers are able to correctly account for VAT. The only difference is which price goes on the tag/menu. I've heard this argument loads of times in the US, and it's clearly based on a belief that taxes should add friction so people understand how expensive they are. Most other countries have gone the other way and decided that transparent sticker pricing is more important than people understanding that their taxes are separate from the price of goods.

Tor3 2y ago

Incorrect. In, say, Europe, the final price is on the label and that's what you pay, the receipt lists the individual parts (core price, value added tax etc). And in Japan too - I'm looking at a receipt right now.

exe34 2y ago
Not only that, no tipping. Wages are negotiated between employees and employers, customers have no obligations in it.
shagie 2y ago
https://www.today.com/food/restaurant-surcharges-t263507 https://www.today.com/food/restaurant-surcharges-t263507 > In Milan, in 2008, his bill at a pizzeria included a charge for napkins. “Who eats pizza without using at least one napkin?” he asked, but was summarily told that the restaurant incurs a cost to provide linens. “I’m still not sure why I wasn’t charged for sitting on a chair or using my utensils to eat my food, since these items also require costs to maintain,” he said, only half jokingly. > Two years later, in Florence, he actually was charged for the chair he was sitting in, or more specifically, the orientation of his chair. “My chair faced the piazza and, apparently, only a limited number of chairs had that view.” Even though he and his dining companion ordered more or less the same dish, Britton’s tab was a couple Euros more. He recalled: “The owners felt that it was necessary to charge more for the ‘exclusive’ experience.”
- baobun 2y ago
  I can assure you crap like this would be just as prevalent, nontransparent and unenforced regardless of VAT and pricing rules. It wouldn't actually pass already. Besides, I'm sure there are stories of foreign tourists being ripped of by unscrupulous businesses in the US too, if you ask around enough. For whatever reason, tourist hotspots in Italy have no shortage of unscrupulous business owners. If you've ever been to Rome in high season without a local guide, you either know what I mean or have some next-level karma cashed in.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kstrauser 2y ago
How does that work for online shopping? Do you put your location in at the start? Someone else mentioned online shops and it never occurred to me before now to wonder how to implement that.
- Tor3 2y ago
  VAT varies across countries but not inside countries (except that there may be a different VAT for, say, foodstuff than other items, or services). For online shopping in EU you pay the VAT of the destination (W. You select your location and you'll (normally) see "your" price, and in any case you'll always see "including VAT" mentioned.

giansegato 2y ago

that's not true. you have it written explicitly in the final check. you just don't have to do the mental gymnastics of figuring out how much you'll pay before ordering, which is absolutely absurd

darkwater 2y ago
The only "good side" of having price sticker without tax is that taxes can change as they wish and it cannot be used as an excuse to change the price anyway. It's not that common but sometimes governments do apply VAT changes and usually sellers uses it to push prices up more, because people are already expecting it. Or if the VAT goes down, they don't reduce the final price that much. But overall, as an European, I prefer how we do it.

baobun 2y ago

Huh? It's typically stated on receipts, by law.

RUnconcerned 2y ago

Of course we do, the taxes are listed in the receipt. We just know how much we are paying ahead of time.

Freak_NL 2y ago

Mostly because, and this is the kicker, that does not matter to the vast majority of people buying coffee. If I buy a cup of coffee with a listed price of €2, I pay €2. I know that 9% of that is value added tax (here in the Netherlands), and the receipt will show that too — if I care, which I usually don't. Value added taxes are pretty much a fact of life. I know it's there, and there is absolutely no need to constantly bug me about them by doing funny stuff with the pricing; just show me what I have to pay at the till.

Retric 2y ago
Companies are legally required to break out VAT taxes on a bill because it’s a value added tax so it matters if something is an end product like a car or something request to make that end product. Basically if you buy a PC and the VAT on that sale was 200$ then the company selling you the item might send in 50$ and receipts for 150$ in VAT on items they used to manufacture that PC. Without that exception there’s a huge incentive to vertically integrate manufacturing which would have negative economic consequences.
- Freak_NL 2y ago
  So? The receipt still shows the VAT amount, as required. This is not a problem.
  - Retric 2y ago
    I was trying to clarify for anyone who might misunderstand your comment. It’s fine not to look at a receipt for the details, but I felt someone reading your comment may not realize it was available and you just didn’t look at it. You included a “and the receipt will show that too” but that’s the kind of thing people gloss over.
    - exe34 2y ago
      To be fair, if people will gloss over a random part of an answer, they'll gloss over a random part of another answer too.

shagie 2y ago

You will need to have different prices on the drive through and dine in (and another for to go even if order at the dine in register). https://www.taxjar.com/blog/food/sales-tax-by-state-to-go-restaurant-orders https://www.taxjar.com/blog/food/sales-tax-by-state-to-go-re... https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/restaurant-owners/ https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/restaurant-owners/ - and in particular https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/lawguides/vol1/sutr/1603.html https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/lawguides/vol1/sutr/1603.html

Sindisil 2y ago

Which is why it should be mandatory to show at least three numbers on price labels: product or service price, tax (optionally split by taxing authority), and final cost. Fees are different from taxes in that they're not mandated and the customer has no direct way to affect them.