5 ms·

The next union organizing wave is at Apple

23 points by dxs 2y ago

yareal 2y ago
Best of luck to the union. We're seeing time and time again companies willing to be absolutely ruthless with their employees while earning massive profits. Google and Microsoft laying off thousands while profits are rising. Buybacks instead of salaries. Stagnant wages. Bout time workers started reminding companies that you need us.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > Bout time workers started reminding companies that you need us. If they laid off people they needed they'll find out soon enough without any blow-harding.
  - Rygian 2y ago
    By then it will be too late for those laid off, so a lose-lose situation.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Either it's happening and the consequences are obvious, or it's not happening because everyone's aware of the consequences. Either way, there's no need for any silly "Let's remind them why they need us."
      - Rygian 2y ago
        Or the more realistic: it's happening, the long-term consequences are ignored due to short-term return on investment. While I agree that "let's remind them why they need us" sounds a bit too pitchforky, I believe the background problem is that of mixing long-term considerations (a motivated workforce and a solid business plan) with short-term ones (quick ROI, appeasing shareholders). I believe that unions help focus on the employee side of the longer-term problem.
  - yareal 2y ago
    It might take awhile for systems to disintegrate. And the executives might move on after collecting a tidy bonus. The incentives are too short term for anyone to be concerned about the finding out stage.
    - spacemadness 2y ago
      It’s amazing people keep buying into the delusion that any of the people at the helm of these companies have a vested interest in long-term health of the company. What incentive is there with this much money floating around as an executive? You’re already set for life.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      Okay, so in this context what does that mean? Are you saying the executives don't need the workers after all?
      - yareal 2y ago
        When the pilot steps away from the controls, the plane doesn't instantly crash, but you do still need a pilot. An exec thinks labor is a pilot, but only thinks about the 3 minutes after the pilot moves away, then declares, "see? No pilot needed!" Then the exec jumps out with their parachute, and receives no consequences. Execs don't think about long time horizons. Ever.
        robertlagrant 2y ago
        This seems a pointless conversation. You're describing a stereotype in your head. That's fine, but it's not very useful outside of your head. Do you think companies are all firing people all the time and being destroyed in 2, say, years in real life? How have companies lasted more than 2 years? Or do you think no company is more than 2 years old?
        yareal 2y ago
        Median tenure of large cap companies is like 5 years. Those CEOs are financially incentivized to raise stock value. It's not hard to imagine that many, many executives are motivated to maximize profits even if it hurts the company in the long run. That's not even a matter of opinion. Of course half the CEOs are above the median, which means some do seem to care enough to invest for long term value. In fact, short term gains is basically the reason private equity firms exist - extracting what value can be extracted from a company and then letting it die.
- iwontberude 2y ago
  It’s beyond needing us, it’s having the courage to create a lifecycle of improvement and healthfulness which allows you to never need lay off any employee because you already have a human being who is able to live sustainably, adapt and improve over time instead of being extracted from and discarded. This means hiring less people probably, but investing more into them.
  - yareal 2y ago
    Amen.
floor2 2y ago
Unions made Detroit a world-leading city and made the American auto industry a leader in productivity and profitability. Teacher unions have made the American public education system the envy of the world. Airline unions have made flying safe, smooth, affordable and reliable. Police and prison guard unions have made our legal and penal system trustworthy, fair and equitable. I look forward to continuing the excellent track record of American unions improving everything for everyone.
- readyman 2y ago
  Correction: Strikes did these all of these things and more, but mere unions never have. Strong unions (led by workers) leverage labor power for a better society. Weak unions (led by companies and bureaucrats) leverage hollow gestures and brew distrust.
  - faeriechangling 2y ago
    Yeah this exactly. A union that does not strike isn't a union so much as a bureaucracy created to extract money from labour.
- galdosdi 2y ago
  Mostly poor examples, because - The American auto industry was quite a wonder in its heyday, and that was also when unions reigned. The decline was correlated with the 1970s oil supply shocks, not union organizing - The best American states for education really are pretty union heavy ones like Massachussetts, New Jersey, etc. Same states with highest teacher pay and good union teacher job conditions are the ones with high student achievement. Funny that. - I've been flying in America for decades and it's fine? Like, grow up? Airline peanuts come in funny little bags and sometimes flights are delayed, but all in all it's a pretty marvellous system that charges relatively little for teleporting you around the country.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
poszlem 2y ago
Only tangentially related, but since this is about the retail stores. The absolute worst part of the "Apple experience" is the Apple Store. When you enter, you see a crowd of people acting like zombies (you become one too as soon as you enter) and "Geniuses" scurrying around, pretending to be busy. I despise the experience of approaching a random teenager in a blue T-shirt, only to be told that they're too busy and that I need to find another "Genius." I can't understand what was wrong with a counter and a queue. Why can't they add at least one? It really feels like the whole process could be organized with half the staff and I hope that the whole union discussions at least create some pressure to introduce "self-checkout" machines there.
- musicale 2y ago
  > pressure to introduce "self-checkout" machines There is self-checkout with the Apple Store app, but they have recently made it harder than it needs to be. I think either location services has to be enabled for the app, or you have to find and scan a hidden round QR-like code at the hidden checkout station to bring up the hidden checkout screen. (Come on Tim Cook, do you really not want my money anymore??) Once the hidden checkout screen actually appears, the actual scan and purchase process works fine, and they seem to have fixed the issue where it was too easy to scan the same item twice. The other thing you can do of course is preorder on store.apple.com and then check in when you arrive, either using the app or finding the person with an iPad, usually near the door, who checks people in.

23 points by dxs 2y ago

Best of luck to the union. We're seeing time and time again companies willing to be absolutely ruthless with their employees while earning massive profits. Google and Microsoft laying off thousands while profits are rising. Buybacks instead of salaries. Stagnant wages. Bout time workers started reminding companies that you need us.

robertlagrant 2y ago
> Bout time workers started reminding companies that you need us. If they laid off people they needed they'll find out soon enough without any blow-harding.
- Rygian 2y ago
  By then it will be too late for those laid off, so a lose-lose situation.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Either it's happening and the consequences are obvious, or it's not happening because everyone's aware of the consequences. Either way, there's no need for any silly "Let's remind them why they need us."
    - Rygian 2y ago
      Or the more realistic: it's happening, the long-term consequences are ignored due to short-term return on investment. While I agree that "let's remind them why they need us" sounds a bit too pitchforky, I believe the background problem is that of mixing long-term considerations (a motivated workforce and a solid business plan) with short-term ones (quick ROI, appeasing shareholders). I believe that unions help focus on the employee side of the longer-term problem.
- yareal 2y ago
  It might take awhile for systems to disintegrate. And the executives might move on after collecting a tidy bonus. The incentives are too short term for anyone to be concerned about the finding out stage.
  - spacemadness 2y ago
    It’s amazing people keep buying into the delusion that any of the people at the helm of these companies have a vested interest in long-term health of the company. What incentive is there with this much money floating around as an executive? You’re already set for life.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Okay, so in this context what does that mean? Are you saying the executives don't need the workers after all?
    - yareal 2y ago
      When the pilot steps away from the controls, the plane doesn't instantly crash, but you do still need a pilot. An exec thinks labor is a pilot, but only thinks about the 3 minutes after the pilot moves away, then declares, "see? No pilot needed!" Then the exec jumps out with their parachute, and receives no consequences. Execs don't think about long time horizons. Ever.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        This seems a pointless conversation. You're describing a stereotype in your head. That's fine, but it's not very useful outside of your head. Do you think companies are all firing people all the time and being destroyed in 2, say, years in real life? How have companies lasted more than 2 years? Or do you think no company is more than 2 years old?
        yareal 2y ago
        Median tenure of large cap companies is like 5 years. Those CEOs are financially incentivized to raise stock value. It's not hard to imagine that many, many executives are motivated to maximize profits even if it hurts the company in the long run. That's not even a matter of opinion. Of course half the CEOs are above the median, which means some do seem to care enough to invest for long term value. In fact, short term gains is basically the reason private equity firms exist - extracting what value can be extracted from a company and then letting it die.
iwontberude 2y ago
It’s beyond needing us, it’s having the courage to create a lifecycle of improvement and healthfulness which allows you to never need lay off any employee because you already have a human being who is able to live sustainably, adapt and improve over time instead of being extracted from and discarded. This means hiring less people probably, but investing more into them.
- yareal 2y ago
  Amen.

floor2 2y ago

Unions made Detroit a world-leading city and made the American auto industry a leader in productivity and profitability. Teacher unions have made the American public education system the envy of the world. Airline unions have made flying safe, smooth, affordable and reliable. Police and prison guard unions have made our legal and penal system trustworthy, fair and equitable. I look forward to continuing the excellent track record of American unions improving everything for everyone.

readyman 2y ago
Correction: Strikes did these all of these things and more, but mere unions never have. Strong unions (led by workers) leverage labor power for a better society. Weak unions (led by companies and bureaucrats) leverage hollow gestures and brew distrust.
- faeriechangling 2y ago
  Yeah this exactly. A union that does not strike isn't a union so much as a bureaucracy created to extract money from labour.
galdosdi 2y ago
Mostly poor examples, because - The American auto industry was quite a wonder in its heyday, and that was also when unions reigned. The decline was correlated with the 1970s oil supply shocks, not union organizing - The best American states for education really are pretty union heavy ones like Massachussetts, New Jersey, etc. Same states with highest teacher pay and good union teacher job conditions are the ones with high student achievement. Funny that. - I've been flying in America for decades and it's fine? Like, grow up? Airline peanuts come in funny little bags and sometimes flights are delayed, but all in all it's a pretty marvellous system that charges relatively little for teleporting you around the country.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

poszlem 2y ago

Only tangentially related, but since this is about the retail stores. The absolute worst part of the "Apple experience" is the Apple Store. When you enter, you see a crowd of people acting like zombies (you become one too as soon as you enter) and "Geniuses" scurrying around, pretending to be busy. I despise the experience of approaching a random teenager in a blue T-shirt, only to be told that they're too busy and that I need to find another "Genius." I can't understand what was wrong with a counter and a queue. Why can't they add at least one? It really feels like the whole process could be organized with half the staff and I hope that the whole union discussions at least create some pressure to introduce "self-checkout" machines there.

musicale 2y ago
> pressure to introduce "self-checkout" machines There is self-checkout with the Apple Store app, but they have recently made it harder than it needs to be. I think either location services has to be enabled for the app, or you have to find and scan a hidden round QR-like code at the hidden checkout station to bring up the hidden checkout screen. (Come on Tim Cook, do you really not want my money anymore??) Once the hidden checkout screen actually appears, the actual scan and purchase process works fine, and they seem to have fixed the issue where it was too easy to scan the same item twice. The other thing you can do of course is preorder on store.apple.com and then check in when you arrive, either using the app or finding the person with an iPad, usually near the door, who checks people in.