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Seven out of 10 Europeans believe their country takes in too many immigrants
- sans_souse 2y agoHoo boy, that is some sample size there: "10"
- thenaturalist 2y agoWhat are you talking about? > These are some of the conclusions from a survey carried out online between March 27 and April 9 in the 27 member states, where 22,726 people over 15 years of age were interviewed, with a representative sample from each country. In addition to El PAÍS, the media organizations Gazeta Wyborcza, Internazionale, Ir, Kathimerini, Le Soir and Telex collaborated in the survey. They even publish the data as well as a detailed presentation detailing number of respondents per country: https://www.arte.tv/sites/corporate/de/umfrage-concerns-and-perceptions-of-eu-citizens/ https://www.arte.tv/sites/corporate/de/umfrage-concerns-and-...
- spookie 2y agoIt doesn't seem too representative, that equates to less than 1k per country. Also, the age range is quite small. Still worrisome. To be frank, given recent events and geopolitical tensions, people are divided on this matter.
- abdullahkhalids 2y agoAccuracy depends only on sample size, not the total population size. A 1k sample gives you a 95% confidence interval [1]. [1] https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/166/how-do-you-decide-the-sample-size-when-polling-a-large-population https://stats.stackexchange.com/questions/166/how-do-you-dec...
- alephnerd 2y agoTo add to this, check out the Central Limit Theorem [0]. [0] - https://statisticsbyjim.com/basics/central-limit-theorem/ https://statisticsbyjim.com/basics/central-limit-theorem/
- nubinetwork 2y agoFunny, if you were to ask that in North America, you'd be called xenophobic.
- blitzar 2y agoIt would be a bit lacking in self awareness for a country of immigrants to say they dont like immigrants.
- icegreentea2 2y ago??? This question gets polled all the time in North America ??? https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/growing-number-of-canadians-believe-immigration-levels-too-high-survey-1.6623463 https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/growing-number-of-canadians-be... https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx
- srg0 2y agoVisit reddit, and you'll see that many of these Europeans who are against immigration are specifically against male immigrants with Black African and North African heritage. I think that there's a lot of racism in these sentiments. More than just a generic xenophobia.
- bitcharmer 2y agoI don't think calling genuine fear racist or xenophobic is very fair. For someone who's lived long enough to compare life 30 years ago and now (for example in Germany or Sweden) there are some obvious changes visible with equally observable consequences. You just know by paying attention and staying informed. I think name calling and gaslighting is the biggest problem here because it poisons the whole discourse.
- eimrine 2y agoTangential, the cookie banner choice between "accept and continue" "subscribe and reject" is a pure gold of dark patterns.
- doubloon 2y agoOh the irony
- spacebanana7 2y agoEuropean countries must choose between Americanisation (becoming a nation of immigrations) or Japanification (becoming an elderly nation with plateauing economics) because of the low birth rates & high life expectancy. I see the UK/France going for the former option and Poland/Hungary going for the latter. Will be interesting to see how Germany and Sweden decide.
- mcntsh 2y agoThey could also do better to incentivize their own people to have families. It doesn't have to be one of two sides of the neoliberal dystopian coin.
- spacebanana7 2y agoThere's no recipe policymakers can follow to raise birthrates over extended periods of time. Sweden, South Korea and Poland have all tried generous financial supports that failed; the smaller Soviet republics tried authoritarian methods that failed. Even nineteenth century France & Imperial Rome under Augustus don't appear to have been successful in raising birthrates, although I can't pretend to have great data for those examples.
- mcntsh 2y agoWhich generous financial supports are you talking about?
- spacebanana7 2y agoExtended maternity/paternity leave (especially in Sweden), child benefits (especially Poland), tax exemptions (e.g Hungarian income tax), subsidised or free childcare and more.
- mcntsh 2y agoParental leave in Sweden is 80% of your salary and maxes out at 2500 a month for both partners... In Germany it maxes out at 1800. These aren't incentives since you'd be LOSING money by taking parental leave... > child benefits 120-180 EUR a month per child doesn't even cover half the costs of a child.
- yurishimo 2y agoI certainly understand the sentiment, but my question to someone on the "anti" immigration side would be this: what do you see as a possible alternative solution? Populations are shrinking and to keep the economy in a healthy place, money needs to come from somewhere. The easiest solution is to add bodies via immigration. Otherwise taxes need to go up or governments need to spend money incentivizing people to start families, which will also probably necessitate an increase in taxes. I moved to the Netherlands a couple of years ago and it's clear to me that the status quo will slowly degrade society eventually. Maybe not in my lifetime and perhaps not in the lifetimes of my future children, but not doing anything is also a decision. I think if a country decides that it wants to go down one path that essentially leads to a "natural end" that should be their right as a democratic society, but don't try and hide your nations intentions behind flowery language about inclusivity and diversity. If some ideals are so important to the culture, then I think these nations need to be honest and start codifying more aspects of their desired culture into law or start investing heavily in social programs to foster that longing culture. Please, I absolutely want to here some of your ideas on all sides of this issue! Right now I'm just an immigrant sitting on the sidelines waiting to see how this all shakes out.
- mytailorisrich 2y agoFollowing this logic, population has to keep growing forever. Thus won't happen and it is impossible for it to happen. So immigration is just kicking the can down the road (with heavy societal cost) instead of facing the challenge head-on. That challenge is to accept that population will stop growing and even decrease and to adapt. For instance, technology allows and will allow to automate many jobs.
- yurishimo 2y agoI mostly agree, and I should have added something about that to my original post. In our current economies, things only "work" if the numbers keep increasing. Personally, I think we have quite a long way to go before we reach a point where that cannot ever be true and I think we should account for the possibility that humanity finds a way to keep expanding forever. Whether that be into the ocean or outer space or perhaps ever vertically on Earth. But those are problems for a thousand years from now and I don't think are as worthy of consideration in 2024. What sort of other challenges do you see that need to be addressed first and foremost?
- whereismyacc 2y agounfortunate, immigration is good.
- herbst 2y agoI just parsed the whole findings and damn that's depressing. My key finding is that the average European sees the EU and their country go down but his personal situation either improved or at least was stable. https://www.arte.tv/sites/corporate/de/umfrage-concerns-and-perceptions-of-eu-citizens/ https://www.arte.tv/sites/corporate/de/umfrage-concerns-and-...
- beAbU 2y agoI wonder how this sentiment would change if illegal and asylum seeking immigration ceases to exist. There's lots of noise in Ireland currently due to "tent cities" popping up in Dublin - there's not enough space to accommodate all the asylum seekers that arrive in the city any more. This clearly has a negative impact on everyone's perception of immigration, and the press readily forgets about the immigrants that entered the country through legal channels and are actively contributing to the economy on a daily basis.
- mytailorisrich 2y agoI don't think it would change. Illegal immigration and asylum abuse get the most headlines because that allows the most sensationalist take. But if you look at the anti-immigration trends in countries like France or the Netherland, or perhaps Germany, they are driven by legal immigration over decades. I think it's also a mistake to focus on the economy. First because contributing to the economy as a whole does not mean it benefits everyone. For instance, it can keep wages low or lower. Second because when people object to mass immigration they often look at the impact on society and the disappearing local culture and the impact on housing and infrastructure. The same mistake was made in the UK during the Brexit referendum: the 'remain' side focused on the "economic benefits" of immigration, completely missing the actual concerns of the people.
- alephnerd 2y agoIt's interesting seeing non-immigrants on HN trying to extrapolate immigrant choices as to why they move where they do, and by interesting I mean very reductive and insulting. I'm the child of immigrants, and my family decided to move to the US over Western Europe or Singapore specifically because the opportunities are greater and Americans are way more open-minded about immigrants mixing their home culture with their adopted culture. At the end of the day, European countries will have to make the choice about whether they want to remain monoethnic entities (which itself was a result of ethnic cleansing during and after WW2) or whether they are open to a multicultural identity. There's no point for skilled immigrants to go to Europe if they have the opportunity or pathway to PR or Citizenship in North America as salaries are higher, opportunities are greater, and the population is way less xenophobic (p.s. r/Canada is NOT representative of Canadians - and I lived in parts of BC where the Reform Party was extremely popular back in the day) Why would a Mexican Engineer want to move to Spain in order to earn peanuts and get called a "Sudaca" when they can earn a higher salary in El Paso or Dallas and still be a couple hours from home. Ime, the personal ranking of countries for Asian immigrants (South, East, and Southeast) is as follows: Tier 1 - US, Canada (backdoor to US via TN) Tier 2 - UK, Australia, NZ, SG, Ireland, HK (before NSL) Tier 3 - Rest of Western Europe Tier 4 - East Asia, the Gulf, Malaysia Most European countries are simply consolation prizes for immigrants. Plenty of people from my region of South Asia worked in the UK and Italy 30-50 years ago, but now prefer Canada and the US instead, or if they're educated staying in India.
- arp242 2y agoPlease don't post the exact same comment more than once (the other being https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40317255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40317255).
- alephnerd 2y agoFair enough! Thanks for the heads up
- Gud 2y agoYou don’t speak for every migrant. Interestingly, you yourself aren’t even an immigrant but your parents are! So I guess by your own logic your whole post is “reductive and insulting”? Full disclosure, I’m an immigrant myself, I travel a lot for work and stay for prolonged periods. There are as many reasons to migrate as there are migrants… myself, I would never wish to live in the US but am very happy to live in Switzerland. Your tier list is completely whack, there is no way I would list the UK above Western Europe. I have spent 18+ months in the UK last five years.
- mertbio 2y agoThey probably meant that their country takes in too many unskilled immigrants, not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on.
- alephnerd 2y ago> not highly skilled immigrants like doctors, engineers and so on. If you have the skills for above as an immigrant, you can command way better salaries in the US and Canada, or stay in your home country. There's no reason to immigrate to Western Europe except as a consolation prize.
- mertbio 2y agoNot everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US. Also, people don't want to move too far from their families. Edit: Also I want to add that it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US. The only problem is just learning German but for that most of the companies support you by paying your language course and so on.
- alephnerd 2y ago> Not everything is about money. You have way more security in Western Europe comparing to the US It is as a skilled immigrant like my parents. A job like a doctor or engineer pays decently well in your home country, so there's no reason to uproot your life unless there is a DRASTIC difference in QoL, because immigrating is expensive. You're looking at $30-50k spent to immigrate. Germany doesn't provide that drastic enough an economic change compared to the US and Canada, and that's why it's so easy to immigrate to Germany - it isn't as oversubscribed, and those same white collar roles you mentioned end up giving the same if not better benefits in North America via your employer. For Eastern European or MENA immigrants, Germany makes sense because there is an existing community and it's close to home - not as much for Asians or Central/South Americans. Furthermore, the xenophobia is real in Germany and across Europe. It's hard to explain to a Gora or Ang Mo, but like you'll never truly become "German" or "French" for a large segment of the population no matter how much you try to assimilate. > it is way easier to get a permanent residence and citizenship, for example in Germany than the US Because for a large segment of immigrants (especially from Asia and Central/South America and especially among skilled professionals), Germany and much of Europe simply isn't as attractive a proposition. You end up spending a similar amount immigrating but salaries are much lower and communities aren't as established so it harder to recoup costs
- testhest 2y agoUncontrolled immigration and welfare states don't mix well.