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Driving without a rear window isn’t a big deal - see, for example, nearly every cargo delivery van on Earth. I have to imagine the stubborn refusal to add stand

Driving without a rear window isn’t a big deal - see, for example, nearly every cargo delivery van on Earth. I have to imagine the stubborn refusal to add standard physical controls back to the cockpit has more potential for trouble than an impeded rear view. I wonder if there’s NHTSA data on this specifically for passenger cars? Maybe incidents caused by blocking the driver’s rear view (with furniture or people or whatever) versus fumbling around with a touchscreen or a joystick?

toast0 2y ago
> Driving without a rear window isn’t a big deal - see, for example, nearly every cargo delivery van on Earth. Yeah, it's totally fine, as long as you have both side mirrors. It'd be nice if they put bigger mirrors on the side if they're killing the rear window though. Although they're pushing a screen to replace the mirror, I guess. I haven't used one of those in a while, but I did have a rental with a screen / mirror and found it really strained my eyes to change from far focus on driving to near focus on the screen... Might be better when the screen is not also a mirror, I could kind of see the mirrored image if I was far focused even if the screen was on... it was pretty distracting until I figured out how to turn off the screen part.
- dieselgate 2y ago
  The “long as you have both side mirrors” is kind of interesting nuance. My 1980 civic back in the day only had driver side mirror from the factory which seems common-enough in older cars - it isn’t totally necessary anyway if there’s visibility. assume modern cars would only lack them if it’s damaged or similar.
  - lancebeet 2y ago
    I think driving a car without a curb side mirror would be frowned upon in countries with a lot of bicycle traffic.
  - justsomehnguy 2y ago
    But it had a rear window and a rear view mirror.
cjk2 2y ago
100% agree on this. What I'd really like to see is less software in an EV, complete isolation between higher and lower functions, normal physical controls and an ability to run the thing entirely disconnected from the manufacturer's dragnet. It should be able to charge and be driven with all critical instruments working fully disconnected from anything and without software updates. My colleagues who drive EVs regularly are always having a panic about software updates which break things. I currently don't own a car as I live in a big city but I do rent one occasionally and did own a Model S for a very short time. If I was to buy a car I'd like an EV next time, but not in the current state of things.
- unixhero 2y ago
  Wow youre missing out, car is such a fundamental freedom enabler - of movement
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Yeah I hire one if I need it. Which is about 4 times a year max. I live in London UK and have a really damn good public transport system that stops outside my house, a bicycle and a massive airport on my doorstep. Incidentally I'm actually on a bus on the way to pick up a hire Polestar at the moment because I have a funeral to get to on Monday...
    - dotBen 2y ago
      (Brit living in SF here) Given that this forum is slanted towards America, you have to appreciate that the quality of public transport in London is nothing like what we have here in the US other than New York City. You're not wrong about London (I never owned a car when I lived there and that was a decade before Uber) but your worldview is skewed. If you look at American history from the last century, in cities like Los Angeles the car companies actually bought public transport railways and dismantled them in order to promote a car culture. And this is what we have.
      - ulfw 2y ago
senectus1 2y ago
my 2024 rav 4 has a mirror but by default uses a camera... I could not have a rear window and not notice tbh
yowzadave 2y ago
Just because it can be done doesn’t mean it’s not a worse driving experience. Visibility has been getting gradually worse for a long time (I presume for crash safety reasons). I learned to drive on my dad's old early-90s era Maxima, which had the best visibility I've ever experienced in a car, and I still miss it!
Gud 2y ago
Let me ask you this, how much do you drive? Although I don’t drive much anymore, just daily to and from work, there were periods I would have to drive 250-800km twice per week to get to site(Sweden is a pretty big country). The rear view mirror is absolute advantage. It’s the only way to know wtf is going on right behind you.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  Well, for one, I believe they’re using a digital mirror so the practical purpose of the rear view window is still present. I actually don’t use the rear view most days when driving. I’m planning to put a camper on my truck that would block the rear windows. Been giving it a test to make sure I’m okay without the read. For the most part, I don’t really miss it. I have found that some small cars that ride my bumper tend to disappear - or at least require more visual searching. The situation that I miss it the most is when I’m stopped at a light and visually checking that a car behind me isn’t going to come barreling into me.
  - zaphirplane 2y ago
    What you say applies for the majority of driving time, but the question really is how it performs when a driver is in a situation with high risk of an accident. Glancing , peripheral , situational awareness is important to avoid accidents. The once a couple of years situation

toast0 2y ago

> Driving without a rear window isn’t a big deal - see, for example, nearly every cargo delivery van on Earth. Yeah, it's totally fine, as long as you have both side mirrors. It'd be nice if they put bigger mirrors on the side if they're killing the rear window though. Although they're pushing a screen to replace the mirror, I guess. I haven't used one of those in a while, but I did have a rental with a screen / mirror and found it really strained my eyes to change from far focus on driving to near focus on the screen... Might be better when the screen is not also a mirror, I could kind of see the mirrored image if I was far focused even if the screen was on... it was pretty distracting until I figured out how to turn off the screen part.

dieselgate 2y ago
The “long as you have both side mirrors” is kind of interesting nuance. My 1980 civic back in the day only had driver side mirror from the factory which seems common-enough in older cars - it isn’t totally necessary anyway if there’s visibility. assume modern cars would only lack them if it’s damaged or similar.
- lancebeet 2y ago
  I think driving a car without a curb side mirror would be frowned upon in countries with a lot of bicycle traffic.
- justsomehnguy 2y ago
  But it had a rear window and a rear view mirror.

cjk2 2y ago

100% agree on this. What I'd really like to see is less software in an EV, complete isolation between higher and lower functions, normal physical controls and an ability to run the thing entirely disconnected from the manufacturer's dragnet. It should be able to charge and be driven with all critical instruments working fully disconnected from anything and without software updates. My colleagues who drive EVs regularly are always having a panic about software updates which break things. I currently don't own a car as I live in a big city but I do rent one occasionally and did own a Model S for a very short time. If I was to buy a car I'd like an EV next time, but not in the current state of things.

unixhero 2y ago
Wow youre missing out, car is such a fundamental freedom enabler - of movement
- cjk2 2y ago
  Yeah I hire one if I need it. Which is about 4 times a year max. I live in London UK and have a really damn good public transport system that stops outside my house, a bicycle and a massive airport on my doorstep. Incidentally I'm actually on a bus on the way to pick up a hire Polestar at the moment because I have a funeral to get to on Monday...
  - dotBen 2y ago
    (Brit living in SF here) Given that this forum is slanted towards America, you have to appreciate that the quality of public transport in London is nothing like what we have here in the US other than New York City. You're not wrong about London (I never owned a car when I lived there and that was a decade before Uber) but your worldview is skewed. If you look at American history from the last century, in cities like Los Angeles the car companies actually bought public transport railways and dismantled them in order to promote a car culture. And this is what we have.
    - ulfw 2y ago

senectus1 2y ago

my 2024 rav 4 has a mirror but by default uses a camera... I could not have a rear window and not notice tbh

yowzadave 2y ago

Just because it can be done doesn’t mean it’s not a worse driving experience. Visibility has been getting gradually worse for a long time (I presume for crash safety reasons). I learned to drive on my dad's old early-90s era Maxima, which had the best visibility I've ever experienced in a car, and I still miss it!

Gud 2y ago

Let me ask you this, how much do you drive? Although I don’t drive much anymore, just daily to and from work, there were periods I would have to drive 250-800km twice per week to get to site(Sweden is a pretty big country). The rear view mirror is absolute advantage. It’s the only way to know wtf is going on right behind you.

SkyPuncher 2y ago
Well, for one, I believe they’re using a digital mirror so the practical purpose of the rear view window is still present. I actually don’t use the rear view most days when driving. I’m planning to put a camper on my truck that would block the rear windows. Been giving it a test to make sure I’m okay without the read. For the most part, I don’t really miss it. I have found that some small cars that ride my bumper tend to disappear - or at least require more visual searching. The situation that I miss it the most is when I’m stopped at a light and visually checking that a car behind me isn’t going to come barreling into me.
- zaphirplane 2y ago
  What you say applies for the majority of driving time, but the question really is how it performs when a driver is in a situation with high risk of an accident. Glancing , peripheral , situational awareness is important to avoid accidents. The once a couple of years situation