5 ms·

I Went to China and Drove a Dozen Electric Cars. Western Automakers Are Cooked

46 points by themgt 2y ago

xenospn 2y ago
Branding is extremely important in the west. In China, maybe not so much. Western buyers who are not cost-conscious won’t buy a car its name they can’t pronounce. Quality-wise, when it comes to budget cars, I completely agree and it is very obvious the first time you ride in a Polestar after driving a Tesla.
- tocs3 2y ago
  If I remember right, the domestic car companies and fans made the same argument in the 1980s (last century) bout "Jap" cars. The US bought value (good cars, good price) and bailed out domestic auto makes. I just hope they sell something to do not have to log into. That would be a great feature. edit: I am old enough to remember late 70s-80s.
  - jerlam 2y ago
    Same thing with Korean cars in the past 20 years. Hyundai and Kia aren't looked down upon anymore, especially with their recent EVs.
- ein0p 2y ago
  IDK if they’re as important as they used to be on the lower end. Enshittification and cost cutting have diluted the established brand values so much, that idk if I’d prefer a Chrysler, Dodge or Ford to a competitively priced Chinese brand, if both were available.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    And things like subscription costs for heated seats aren't helping the case for western automakers: https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/bmw-offering-heated-seat-subscriptions-in-australia https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/bmw-offering-heated-se... Just No.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      Yeah. As a BMW owner this was the moment where I decided I’ll never own another BMW
ggm 2y ago
The domestic market alone will make china's EV industry viable. Their export market is not dependent on "dumping" it has economy of scale behind it. There are at least 3 Chinese EV on the market in Australia and they are priced below tesla but above ICE. They're selling well. "Build your dreams" indeed.
- jerlam 2y ago
  The "shock" expressed by Western journalists when they realize that China doesn't care too much about the US or the EU is silly. China's population is twice as large as the US and the EU combined; their domestic market, just like ours, will choose practical options that are locally designed and manufactured for their needs over foreign ones that come with import taxes and accusations of unpatriotism.
  - ggm 2y ago
    Battery innovation coming out of CATL is interesting for everyone. We're used to decrying Chinese disregard for IPR in the ICT sector but I haven't heard or read anything to say their new high power, large MWh, fast charging, low fire risk sodium battery is based on "stolen" technology. If they can exceed 600km and get 80% recharge in under 10 minutes then range anxiety and time at the pump fears will go away. Their sales talk says 1000km and 5 minutes recharge, I think to 60%. Allowing for hyperbole I think this may be net beneficial, for some people who currently won't buy EV. Much depends on price, reliability, safety and range.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      https://www.ft.com/content/b255d7b9-88f6-4481-a3a6-87542d2b728b https://www.ft.com/content/b255d7b9-88f6-4481-a3a6-87542d2b7... | https://archive.today/eC5Pp https://archive.today/eC5Pp ("Financial Times: Zombie car factories on the rise in China as buyers opt for EVs") https://www.arenaev.com/chinese_ev_car_sales_surpass_50_for_the_first_time_ever-news-3445.php https://www.arenaev.com/chinese_ev_car_sales_surpass_50_for_... ("Chinese EV car sales exceed 50% for the first time ever")
  - 2y ago
wumeow 2y ago
Between the Tiktok digression and the talk of more flavorful kfc sandwiches, I think this guy made up his mind before he got on his Geely-sponsored flight.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
ChumpGPT 2y ago
Not a fan of Tesla or Elon but he is smart and realized Tesla is going to be in big trouble just like the rest of the industry if he can't set them apart technically. Probably explains his pivot into FSD and AI in a panic mode. Anyone can build charging stations and he can't afford to waste time on new models. He needs to push the software far beyond what anyone else has to set his vehicles apart from the rest of the Industry. If you just make electric cars, the Chinese are going to kill you.
- polishdude20 2y ago
  Why is it that we don't see tonnes of Chinese ICE cars though? They've had many more years to catch up. Sure the Chinese electric vehicles will take over in China but why would they take over in the US?
  - pheatherlite 2y ago
    ICE is way more complicated than pure ev. Making it reliable and dependable and then building a brand takes time. Whereas strapping a motor to wheels and updating the controller via software is a way more forgiving model
  - MrMan 2y ago
    [dead]
  - ein0p 2y ago
    You do see a lot of them, just not in the US and Europe. IIRC about half of BYDs production are not EVs
quantified 2y ago
Incumbent auto companies were only threatened by EVs, and USA drivers are sort of bimodal, some like EVs and lots want the big SUVs, so US automakers were not quick to get going. Investing in replacements for oil seems problematic in some very politically important areas. It would have been completely impossible for either of the last two presidential administrations to get any sort of national policy working to really accelerate EV adoption. The author is pragmatic in saying that the Chinese govt may be favoring this industry to take over the world, and doing unfair this and that, but the results will be facts regardless of how they came to be. Chinese vehicles will still need to meet US safety standards, their brands will need acceptance by large enough numbers, and they will co-exist with gas in everyplace ill-served by electric infrastructure in this large country, but they are coming. Sadly, the American auto companies will have densizitized everyone to all their data being collected and shared by unfriendly parties, so the Chinese won't be that different.
- powerapple 2y ago
  car manufacturers have been sitting too conformably for too long, I remember the $1000 option for bluetooth. What EV does to the market is going to be very good, it will push manufacturers to improve their product, and have better value. I have seen this in Chinese domestic market. How can a car in 202X designed so badly and does not have a place for a phone holder? And the design is so had you can't find a good way to install one. They will need to work hard or get out-competed.
wholemodern 2y ago
The article say absolutely nothing about build quality, performance, serviceability, support or really anything about ANY of those "dozen" cars. It mentions one car and only one feature and that is the 4K display. That's the only concrete thing the author actually talks about. The display. And he also mentions how he was a guest of Geely. So he was not there as independent journalist. Everything else is fluff.

46 points by themgt 2y ago

Branding is extremely important in the west. In China, maybe not so much. Western buyers who are not cost-conscious won’t buy a car its name they can’t pronounce. Quality-wise, when it comes to budget cars, I completely agree and it is very obvious the first time you ride in a Polestar after driving a Tesla.

tocs3 2y ago
If I remember right, the domestic car companies and fans made the same argument in the 1980s (last century) bout "Jap" cars. The US bought value (good cars, good price) and bailed out domestic auto makes. I just hope they sell something to do not have to log into. That would be a great feature. edit: I am old enough to remember late 70s-80s.
- jerlam 2y ago
  Same thing with Korean cars in the past 20 years. Hyundai and Kia aren't looked down upon anymore, especially with their recent EVs.
ein0p 2y ago
IDK if they’re as important as they used to be on the lower end. Enshittification and cost cutting have diluted the established brand values so much, that idk if I’d prefer a Chrysler, Dodge or Ford to a competitively priced Chinese brand, if both were available.
- justinclift 2y ago
  And things like subscription costs for heated seats aren't helping the case for western automakers: https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/bmw-offering-heated-seat-subscriptions-in-australia https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/bmw-offering-heated-se... Just No.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    Yeah. As a BMW owner this was the moment where I decided I’ll never own another BMW

ggm 2y ago

The domestic market alone will make china's EV industry viable. Their export market is not dependent on "dumping" it has economy of scale behind it. There are at least 3 Chinese EV on the market in Australia and they are priced below tesla but above ICE. They're selling well. "Build your dreams" indeed.

jerlam 2y ago
The "shock" expressed by Western journalists when they realize that China doesn't care too much about the US or the EU is silly. China's population is twice as large as the US and the EU combined; their domestic market, just like ours, will choose practical options that are locally designed and manufactured for their needs over foreign ones that come with import taxes and accusations of unpatriotism.
- ggm 2y ago
  Battery innovation coming out of CATL is interesting for everyone. We're used to decrying Chinese disregard for IPR in the ICT sector but I haven't heard or read anything to say their new high power, large MWh, fast charging, low fire risk sodium battery is based on "stolen" technology. If they can exceed 600km and get 80% recharge in under 10 minutes then range anxiety and time at the pump fears will go away. Their sales talk says 1000km and 5 minutes recharge, I think to 60%. Allowing for hyperbole I think this may be net beneficial, for some people who currently won't buy EV. Much depends on price, reliability, safety and range.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    https://www.ft.com/content/b255d7b9-88f6-4481-a3a6-87542d2b728b https://www.ft.com/content/b255d7b9-88f6-4481-a3a6-87542d2b7... | https://archive.today/eC5Pp https://archive.today/eC5Pp ("Financial Times: Zombie car factories on the rise in China as buyers opt for EVs") https://www.arenaev.com/chinese_ev_car_sales_surpass_50_for_the_first_time_ever-news-3445.php https://www.arenaev.com/chinese_ev_car_sales_surpass_50_for_... ("Chinese EV car sales exceed 50% for the first time ever")
- 2y ago

wumeow 2y ago

Between the Tiktok digression and the talk of more flavorful kfc sandwiches, I think this guy made up his mind before he got on his Geely-sponsored flight.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

ChumpGPT 2y ago

Not a fan of Tesla or Elon but he is smart and realized Tesla is going to be in big trouble just like the rest of the industry if he can't set them apart technically. Probably explains his pivot into FSD and AI in a panic mode. Anyone can build charging stations and he can't afford to waste time on new models. He needs to push the software far beyond what anyone else has to set his vehicles apart from the rest of the Industry. If you just make electric cars, the Chinese are going to kill you.

polishdude20 2y ago
Why is it that we don't see tonnes of Chinese ICE cars though? They've had many more years to catch up. Sure the Chinese electric vehicles will take over in China but why would they take over in the US?
- pheatherlite 2y ago
  ICE is way more complicated than pure ev. Making it reliable and dependable and then building a brand takes time. Whereas strapping a motor to wheels and updating the controller via software is a way more forgiving model
- MrMan 2y ago
  [dead]
- ein0p 2y ago
  You do see a lot of them, just not in the US and Europe. IIRC about half of BYDs production are not EVs

quantified 2y ago

Incumbent auto companies were only threatened by EVs, and USA drivers are sort of bimodal, some like EVs and lots want the big SUVs, so US automakers were not quick to get going. Investing in replacements for oil seems problematic in some very politically important areas. It would have been completely impossible for either of the last two presidential administrations to get any sort of national policy working to really accelerate EV adoption. The author is pragmatic in saying that the Chinese govt may be favoring this industry to take over the world, and doing unfair this and that, but the results will be facts regardless of how they came to be. Chinese vehicles will still need to meet US safety standards, their brands will need acceptance by large enough numbers, and they will co-exist with gas in everyplace ill-served by electric infrastructure in this large country, but they are coming. Sadly, the American auto companies will have densizitized everyone to all their data being collected and shared by unfriendly parties, so the Chinese won't be that different.

powerapple 2y ago
car manufacturers have been sitting too conformably for too long, I remember the $1000 option for bluetooth. What EV does to the market is going to be very good, it will push manufacturers to improve their product, and have better value. I have seen this in Chinese domestic market. How can a car in 202X designed so badly and does not have a place for a phone holder? And the design is so had you can't find a good way to install one. They will need to work hard or get out-competed.

wholemodern 2y ago

The article say absolutely nothing about build quality, performance, serviceability, support or really anything about ANY of those "dozen" cars. It mentions one car and only one feature and that is the 4K display. That's the only concrete thing the author actually talks about. The display. And he also mentions how he was a guest of Geely. So he was not there as independent journalist. Everything else is fluff.