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> The west should be cleaning up its own house and leading by example - instead it has spent decades pointing fingers at China and other countries shouting ‘you

by _djo_ 2y ago

> The west should be cleaning up its own house and leading by example - instead it has spent decades pointing fingers at China and other countries shouting ‘you first’ This is inaccurate. The west has been cleaning up its own house and leading by example. While they could and should have done much more, western countries implemented emissions reductions measures long before demanding anyone else do it, and in fact for decades explicitly excluded China as a developing country from having to comply with these agreements. As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly, became decoupled from GDP growth for the first time in history. In the meantime China has dramatically surged its emissions, becoming the biggest emitter by far. India and Russia have also increased emissions substantially, becoming the third and fourth highest emitters. In fact, the entire EU now produces fewer carbon emissions than India, and only a little more than Russia. If current trends continue, before long the top three emitters will be China, India, and Russia, and their trajectories remain worrying. So any solution that doesn’t encourage those countries to also reduce their emissions is going to doom us all to accelerating climate change. As for the moral argument, it’s no more moral for China, India, and Russia to emit all the pollution they can than it was when western countries did it. If anything, it’s even more immoral given that better technologies exist and we understand the problem much better.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly Most of our emission reduction was achieved by outsourcing manufacturing to China. We don’t get an award for that: > Eu now produces fewer emission than India Comparison of emissions should be done per capita - India is expected to emit more that EU, it has almost 3x as he population. The he idea that US should be top emitter forever when it’s only 300k people is absurd. Also EU has invested way more into cleantech than US has and has many times more production of these technologies than US does Lastly - don’t lump Russia together with China and India - China and India are actively developing countries with active leadership. Russia is stagnant and a bit of a failed state. So there is no point of comparing with failed states. Immorality is irrelevant - we will get rekt economically: EU is, right now, asking China to reduce production of electric cars and complaining that they are unfairly flooding the market
- _djo_ 2y ago
  > Most of our emission reduction was achieved by outsourcing manufacturing to China. We don’t get an award for that: That's a common fallacy and overly simplistic. EU reductions in emissions from power generation, transportation, agriculture, construction, and similar have all been reduced by similar proportions as those from industry. > Comparison of emissions should be done per capita - India is expected to emit more that EU, it has almost 3x as he population. The he idea that US should be top emitter forever when it’s only 300k people is absurd. Also EU has invested way more into cleantech than US has and has many times more production of these technologies than US does Even on a per capita level, China emits more per capita than the EU does, and not that much less than the US which is still reducing its per capita emissions, so it will likely surpass it soon. India, for now, emits less, but under current trends will surpass the EU on a per capita basis before long too. Fact is, both the EU's and US's annual carbon emissions have been trending down for years now, whereas those of China and India continue to point sharply upward. It makes zero sense to focus all the attention and anger on the US and the EU while ignoring what will soon become the world's top emitters. > Lastly - don’t lump Russia together with China and India - China and India are actively developing countries with active leadership. Russia is stagnant and a bit of a failed state. So there is no point of comparing with failed states. Russia is one of the world's top five emitters of greenhouse gases, of course it matters. > Immorality is irrelevant - we will get rekt economically: EU is, right now, asking China to reduce production of electric cars and complaining that they are unfairly flooding the market I didn't say we should base this on immorality, I'm saying your argument is implicitly based on it and incorrect as a result. What matters is the volume of emissions, and unless we slow down the level of emissions from China, India, Russia, and others forming the top tier of emitters we're not going to be able to meet any good climate targets.

by _djo_ 2y ago

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

> As a result, western emissions have been declining for decades and, most importantly Most of our emission reduction was achieved by outsourcing manufacturing to China. We don’t get an award for that: > Eu now produces fewer emission than India Comparison of emissions should be done per capita - India is expected to emit more that EU, it has almost 3x as he population. The he idea that US should be top emitter forever when it’s only 300k people is absurd. Also EU has invested way more into cleantech than US has and has many times more production of these technologies than US does Lastly - don’t lump Russia together with China and India - China and India are actively developing countries with active leadership. Russia is stagnant and a bit of a failed state. So there is no point of comparing with failed states. Immorality is irrelevant - we will get rekt economically: EU is, right now, asking China to reduce production of electric cars and complaining that they are unfairly flooding the market

_djo_ 2y ago
> Most of our emission reduction was achieved by outsourcing manufacturing to China. We don’t get an award for that: That's a common fallacy and overly simplistic. EU reductions in emissions from power generation, transportation, agriculture, construction, and similar have all been reduced by similar proportions as those from industry. > Comparison of emissions should be done per capita - India is expected to emit more that EU, it has almost 3x as he population. The he idea that US should be top emitter forever when it’s only 300k people is absurd. Also EU has invested way more into cleantech than US has and has many times more production of these technologies than US does Even on a per capita level, China emits more per capita than the EU does, and not that much less than the US which is still reducing its per capita emissions, so it will likely surpass it soon. India, for now, emits less, but under current trends will surpass the EU on a per capita basis before long too. Fact is, both the EU's and US's annual carbon emissions have been trending down for years now, whereas those of China and India continue to point sharply upward. It makes zero sense to focus all the attention and anger on the US and the EU while ignoring what will soon become the world's top emitters. > Lastly - don’t lump Russia together with China and India - China and India are actively developing countries with active leadership. Russia is stagnant and a bit of a failed state. So there is no point of comparing with failed states. Russia is one of the world's top five emitters of greenhouse gases, of course it matters. > Immorality is irrelevant - we will get rekt economically: EU is, right now, asking China to reduce production of electric cars and complaining that they are unfairly flooding the market I didn't say we should base this on immorality, I'm saying your argument is implicitly based on it and incorrect as a result. What matters is the volume of emissions, and unless we slow down the level of emissions from China, India, Russia, and others forming the top tier of emitters we're not going to be able to meet any good climate targets.