3 ms·

> machinery requires combustion solar power / RTGs could power such effort. Digging shelters could be done by unmanned missions before the manned missions woul

> machinery requires combustion solar power / RTGs could power such effort. Digging shelters could be done by unmanned missions before the manned missions would arrive.

Alupis 2y ago
I don't think this comment fully appreciates the density of hydrocarbon-based energy sources. No, a RTG-powered bulldozer isn't going to be clearing caves and trenches on Mars, ever.
- _visgean 2y ago
  rtgs can be used to aid solar in charging batteries, the digging process can take a long time, if you space it correctly you would be able to get that energy from solar etc
  - Alupis 2y ago
    No, you cannot. You are still dramatically underestimating the density of hydrocarbon energy. Solar, electric, batteries, etc do not even remotely come close. This line of thinking also dramatically underestimates the energy requirement to excavate dirt and rock... Then, figure it's on another planet with dust storms that have already killed solar-powered rovers, etc.
    - _visgean 2y ago
      > You are still dramatically underestimating the density of hydrocarbon energy. Solar, electric, batteries, etc do not even remotely come close. I never mentioned hydrocarbon energy. You keep bringing it up for some reason. > Solar, electric, batteries, etc do not even remotely come close. I don't need them to come close. I need them to do the job, and they do it > This line of thinking also dramatically underestimates the energy requirement to excavate dirt and rock... here are some electric, battery powered excavators: - https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines/ec230-electric/ https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines... - https://www.wackerneuson.cz/en/zero-emission/electric-excavators/tracked-zero-tail-excavator-ez17e https://www.wackerneuson.cz/en/zero-emission/electric-excava... - https://www.komatsu.jp/en/newsroom/2023/20230721 https://www.komatsu.jp/en/newsroom/2023/20230721 - https://www.jcb.com/en-us/products/compact-excavators/19c-1e https://www.jcb.com/en-us/products/compact-excavators/19c-1e - https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/excavators/compact-excavators/e10e https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/excavators/compact-ex... - https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines/ https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines... - https://www.hitachicm.com/eu/en/onsite/article/Introduction_to_two_new_Hitachi_electric_excavators2/ https://www.hitachicm.com/eu/en/onsite/article/Introduction_... - https://www.casece.com/en/europe/products/excavators/d-series-mini-excavators/cx15ev https://www.casece.com/en/europe/products/excavators/d-serie... - https://www.kubota.com/news/2023/20231218.html https://www.kubota.com/news/2023/20231218.html There are excavators both small and big so yes you can definetely excavate using electricity alone. > dust storms that have already killed solar-powered rovers Looking at list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_rover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_rover I guess you talk about Zhurong and Opportunity? Both of these seems like success story given that they survived way longer than they were expected to..
      - toxic72 2y ago
        Just wanted to add to your list, electric dozers have been on the market for some time. Even more impressive given the weight. https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/medium-dozers/15969752.html https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/medi...
        Alupis 2y ago
        And how do we get a 51,333 lb bulldozer to Mars? Not to mention this bulldozer still burns hydrocarbons. It uses electric drive for it's tracks - and the electricity is generated by hydrocarbons!
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  a gallon of gas produces about 33 kWh. A meter of solar panels (which has a similar weight without glass) produces about 1000 kWh / year. (It's about the same on Earth and Mars since a Mars year is almost twice as long)
  - Alupis 2y ago
    This isn't a helpful metric though - even if we had a vast grid of solar on Mars - how is the power going to be stored? Batteries? How do you get them there? Who plugs it all in? Who maintains if when it fails? Excavating earth and rock in the volume being proposed (to build underground dwelling spaces) is not trivial...
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      Why store it? Dig when the sun is shining and idle when it isn't. Your other concerns are power source agnostic.
      - Alupis 2y ago
        All of the other issues still exist. How do you setup a solar farm on a remote planet without any humans being involved (the OP was discussing tunneling before any humans arrived). Who plugs it all in? Who dusts it off after a storm? How long are the cables that power this excavator? What happens if they get tangled or damaged? It's just a non-starter of an idea...
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Mining on Earth is already electrifying and going remotely piloted and a little bit autonomous [1]. [1] https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/no-one-behind-the-wheel-the-new-workforce-driving-australia-s-mines-20190411-p51dd2.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/no-one-behind-the-...

> machinery requires combustion solar power / RTGs could power such effort. Digging shelters could be done by unmanned missions before the manned missions would arrive.

Alupis 2y ago

I don't think this comment fully appreciates the density of hydrocarbon-based energy sources. No, a RTG-powered bulldozer isn't going to be clearing caves and trenches on Mars, ever.

_visgean 2y ago
rtgs can be used to aid solar in charging batteries, the digging process can take a long time, if you space it correctly you would be able to get that energy from solar etc
- Alupis 2y ago
  No, you cannot. You are still dramatically underestimating the density of hydrocarbon energy. Solar, electric, batteries, etc do not even remotely come close. This line of thinking also dramatically underestimates the energy requirement to excavate dirt and rock... Then, figure it's on another planet with dust storms that have already killed solar-powered rovers, etc.
  - _visgean 2y ago
    > You are still dramatically underestimating the density of hydrocarbon energy. Solar, electric, batteries, etc do not even remotely come close. I never mentioned hydrocarbon energy. You keep bringing it up for some reason. > Solar, electric, batteries, etc do not even remotely come close. I don't need them to come close. I need them to do the job, and they do it > This line of thinking also dramatically underestimates the energy requirement to excavate dirt and rock... here are some electric, battery powered excavators: - https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines/ec230-electric/ https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines... - https://www.wackerneuson.cz/en/zero-emission/electric-excavators/tracked-zero-tail-excavator-ez17e https://www.wackerneuson.cz/en/zero-emission/electric-excava... - https://www.komatsu.jp/en/newsroom/2023/20230721 https://www.komatsu.jp/en/newsroom/2023/20230721 - https://www.jcb.com/en-us/products/compact-excavators/19c-1e https://www.jcb.com/en-us/products/compact-excavators/19c-1e - https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/excavators/compact-excavators/e10e https://www.bobcat.com/na/en/equipment/excavators/compact-ex... - https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines/ https://www.volvoce.com/europe/en/products/electric-machines... - https://www.hitachicm.com/eu/en/onsite/article/Introduction_to_two_new_Hitachi_electric_excavators2/ https://www.hitachicm.com/eu/en/onsite/article/Introduction_... - https://www.casece.com/en/europe/products/excavators/d-series-mini-excavators/cx15ev https://www.casece.com/en/europe/products/excavators/d-serie... - https://www.kubota.com/news/2023/20231218.html https://www.kubota.com/news/2023/20231218.html There are excavators both small and big so yes you can definetely excavate using electricity alone. > dust storms that have already killed solar-powered rovers Looking at list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_rover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_rover I guess you talk about Zhurong and Opportunity? Both of these seems like success story given that they survived way longer than they were expected to..
    - toxic72 2y ago
      Just wanted to add to your list, electric dozers have been on the market for some time. Even more impressive given the weight. https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/medium-dozers/15969752.html https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/dozers/medi...
      - Alupis 2y ago
        And how do we get a 51,333 lb bulldozer to Mars? Not to mention this bulldozer still burns hydrocarbons. It uses electric drive for it's tracks - and the electricity is generated by hydrocarbons!
bryanlarsen 2y ago
a gallon of gas produces about 33 kWh. A meter of solar panels (which has a similar weight without glass) produces about 1000 kWh / year. (It's about the same on Earth and Mars since a Mars year is almost twice as long)
- Alupis 2y ago
  This isn't a helpful metric though - even if we had a vast grid of solar on Mars - how is the power going to be stored? Batteries? How do you get them there? Who plugs it all in? Who maintains if when it fails? Excavating earth and rock in the volume being proposed (to build underground dwelling spaces) is not trivial...
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Why store it? Dig when the sun is shining and idle when it isn't. Your other concerns are power source agnostic.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      All of the other issues still exist. How do you setup a solar farm on a remote planet without any humans being involved (the OP was discussing tunneling before any humans arrived). Who plugs it all in? Who dusts it off after a storm? How long are the cables that power this excavator? What happens if they get tangled or damaged? It's just a non-starter of an idea...
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        Mining on Earth is already electrifying and going remotely piloted and a little bit autonomous [1]. [1] https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/no-one-behind-the-wheel-the-new-workforce-driving-australia-s-mines-20190411-p51dd2.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/no-one-behind-the-...