5 ms·

How the ADHD Brain Processes Sugar Differently

44 points by yamrzou 2y ago

giantg2 2y ago
They've seen how some artificial dyes can affect hyperactivity and attention. I wonder if there's any affect on glucose metabolism from them?
- uj8efdjkfdshf 2y ago
  Nope, they generally cause ADHD by chelating zinc and the resulting zinc deficiency drives the ADHD phenotype. I should also note that zinc deficiency can cause insulin resistance, but this causes the opposite of the described effect.
d1sxeyes 2y ago
I find this a bit problematic. I'm not sure that the metabolism of glucose is anything other than a proxy for brain activity, and so this may just be expected behaviour (hardly a shock that someone with ADHD has less brain activity in areas associated with attention). The second study is based on a very small number of participants (only 14 kids with ADHD and 11 without), at varying different stages of puberty (worth carefully considering whether glucose processing in a 7 year old is fairly comparable to a 14 year old).[0] There's still some stuff to explore on this topic, but the conclusion that changing the way people consume sugar can have an impact on ADHD is, in my opinion, premature. Obviously, 'reliable, steady' sources of glucose and 'protein-rich' diets are not bad, and better nutrition is likely to help relieve any diet-exacerbated symptoms of ADHD, but I think more research is needed. [0]: the linked article states '28 children ages 7 to 14—17 with ADHD and 11 without'. I think this is pretty easy to misread, but it's not incorrect. It's an em dash between 14 and 17. The range is 7-14, and the bit after the em dash is the breakdown. It's not as I initially read it '28 children with AHDH aged from 7 to 14-17' (on further introspection, it wouldn't really make sense like that anyway).
- techcode 2y ago
  While I agree with you on the basic premise that those scans are likely reflection of how ADHD brain works in general and not strictly how ADHD brains processes glucose. It's been shown that ketogenic diets - where whole body and brain switch to fat/ketones instead of glucose for power helps with Epilepsy (and was it also Parkinsons).
  - techcode 2y ago
    Premise there is that while "normal" (average neuro typical) brain works just fine with either glucose or ketones - it's different for non-typical brains. And through bypassing damaged or suboptimal glucose pathways, you also bypass problems that come with it. Of course it might also be that ADHD brains simply do come from evolution of what used to be Hunters (as opposed to Gatherers). It wouldn't be too unreasonable to think Hunters ate more fat and protein than Gatherers.
  - d1sxeyes 2y ago
    THere's some evidence, yes, but there's also research that suggests that ketogenic diets can lead to increased risk of heart failure, blood pressure issues, increased risk of kidney stones, so it's really a bit of an evaluation on a case by case basis on what the benefits vs drawbacks are in each individual case, rather than a blanket recommendation that everyone with ADHD/epilepsy/Parkinson's/whatever follows a ketogenic diet.
    - techcode 2y ago
      There are also often gallbladder stones. AFAIK they usually form ahead of ketogenic diet - when people are eating little fat and dont need much enzyme/bile - it's not flushed from gallbladder often enough. And then increased fat consumption on ketogenic (or Paleo, Mediterranean, Carnivore ...etc) diet requires flushing gallbladder - and only then you realize you have gallbladder stones. Anyway - true ketogenic diet is hard to pull off and maintain. Even just few glasses of milk (~2.5g of carbs per 100ml) could take you out of ketosis. Same for basically any typical fruit (e.g. apple, pear, orange, banana...etc) where one fruit is enough carbs to take you out of ketosis. So it's more realistic to sustain low carb with <=50g of carbs per day, and get most of benefits (including weight loss without increasing exercise) without too much risk of all the mentioned negatives. Of course YMMV, and you should consult at least your GP (or other specialists) before changing your diet a lot. In personal experience - such low carb diet works nice in combo with skipping breakfast (not quite intermittent fasting, but time between first and last meal is shorter than time from last meal until next days meal). If anyone is like me and can't really skip breakfast, nor at least delay first meal until noon. I've found drinking "bulletproof coffee" takes case of hunger and energy until actual lunch time. Despite media hype it can be just water, coffee - instant or grounded Turkish/Greek/Balkan style, espresso isn't enough liquid for full mug - with butter and coconut aka MTC oil. And of course if such coffee doesn't work for you as meal replacement. Then eggs, bacon/sausages, avocado (no bread, no beans, no orange/apple/etc juice) is a perfect (practically 0 carbs) meal that works for breakfast, brunch or dinner.
techcode 2y ago
Personal ADHD anecdote - being on low carb or keto was really helping with energy and focus. We were not exactly counting all the nutrients in details. Since we normally eat a lot of protein and fat (think almost mediterranean diet), we basically focused on eating as little carbs as possible - no bread/pasta/potatoes/etc (even whole banana would be too much carbs in a day). On the other hand - back as undiagnosed kid, I've used "white coffee" (milk, sugar and 10%~20% of normal coffee/caffeine) and even bits of chocolate throughout study/tests/exams.
- P_I_Staker 2y ago
  Yes, I've actually been wondering if the stuff about ADHD and sugar had more to do with correlation. A child with ADHD would want tons of sugar. It could have 0 to do with cause, and it would look exactly the same.
Asraelite 2y ago
This article is worded so weirdly. > "Twenty-five had suffered from ADHD since childhood" > "adults with childhood-onset ADHD." ADHD is always from birth and for life. They make it sound like something that can start at random. > "Extra weight equals extra risk for ADHD." This implies that the causation is reversed - that obesity somehow causes ADHD.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >ADHD is always from birth and for life. They make it sound like something that can start at random. In medical terms the "onset" matters, and that's not necessarily from birth. In fact it can be so later, that while the DSM had a maximum age at onset diagnostic criterion for "before 7 years of age" for ADHD, it's now advised to relax it to 12.
  - Asraelite 2y ago
    By "onset" do you mean when it starts affecting their behavior in any way, or when it starts being noticeable/causing problems?
    - coldtea 2y ago
      Onset is when symptoms can be observed. In practice (and phenomenologically speaking) it's the same as "when it starts affecting their behavior in any way", since we can't say it affects it if we can't see any sign of it affecting it. Unless we can observe or measure (and unless we do observe or measure) we'd just be assuming that "of course it does". Which might be a good assumption, but it would still be an assumption.

44 points by yamrzou 2y ago

They've seen how some artificial dyes can affect hyperactivity and attention. I wonder if there's any affect on glucose metabolism from them?

uj8efdjkfdshf 2y ago
Nope, they generally cause ADHD by chelating zinc and the resulting zinc deficiency drives the ADHD phenotype. I should also note that zinc deficiency can cause insulin resistance, but this causes the opposite of the described effect.

d1sxeyes 2y ago

I find this a bit problematic. I'm not sure that the metabolism of glucose is anything other than a proxy for brain activity, and so this may just be expected behaviour (hardly a shock that someone with ADHD has less brain activity in areas associated with attention). The second study is based on a very small number of participants (only 14 kids with ADHD and 11 without), at varying different stages of puberty (worth carefully considering whether glucose processing in a 7 year old is fairly comparable to a 14 year old).[0] There's still some stuff to explore on this topic, but the conclusion that changing the way people consume sugar can have an impact on ADHD is, in my opinion, premature. Obviously, 'reliable, steady' sources of glucose and 'protein-rich' diets are not bad, and better nutrition is likely to help relieve any diet-exacerbated symptoms of ADHD, but I think more research is needed. [0]: the linked article states '28 children ages 7 to 14—17 with ADHD and 11 without'. I think this is pretty easy to misread, but it's not incorrect. It's an em dash between 14 and 17. The range is 7-14, and the bit after the em dash is the breakdown. It's not as I initially read it '28 children with AHDH aged from 7 to 14-17' (on further introspection, it wouldn't really make sense like that anyway).

techcode 2y ago
While I agree with you on the basic premise that those scans are likely reflection of how ADHD brain works in general and not strictly how ADHD brains processes glucose. It's been shown that ketogenic diets - where whole body and brain switch to fat/ketones instead of glucose for power helps with Epilepsy (and was it also Parkinsons).
- techcode 2y ago
  Premise there is that while "normal" (average neuro typical) brain works just fine with either glucose or ketones - it's different for non-typical brains. And through bypassing damaged or suboptimal glucose pathways, you also bypass problems that come with it. Of course it might also be that ADHD brains simply do come from evolution of what used to be Hunters (as opposed to Gatherers). It wouldn't be too unreasonable to think Hunters ate more fat and protein than Gatherers.
- d1sxeyes 2y ago
  THere's some evidence, yes, but there's also research that suggests that ketogenic diets can lead to increased risk of heart failure, blood pressure issues, increased risk of kidney stones, so it's really a bit of an evaluation on a case by case basis on what the benefits vs drawbacks are in each individual case, rather than a blanket recommendation that everyone with ADHD/epilepsy/Parkinson's/whatever follows a ketogenic diet.
  - techcode 2y ago
    There are also often gallbladder stones. AFAIK they usually form ahead of ketogenic diet - when people are eating little fat and dont need much enzyme/bile - it's not flushed from gallbladder often enough. And then increased fat consumption on ketogenic (or Paleo, Mediterranean, Carnivore ...etc) diet requires flushing gallbladder - and only then you realize you have gallbladder stones. Anyway - true ketogenic diet is hard to pull off and maintain. Even just few glasses of milk (~2.5g of carbs per 100ml) could take you out of ketosis. Same for basically any typical fruit (e.g. apple, pear, orange, banana...etc) where one fruit is enough carbs to take you out of ketosis. So it's more realistic to sustain low carb with <=50g of carbs per day, and get most of benefits (including weight loss without increasing exercise) without too much risk of all the mentioned negatives. Of course YMMV, and you should consult at least your GP (or other specialists) before changing your diet a lot. In personal experience - such low carb diet works nice in combo with skipping breakfast (not quite intermittent fasting, but time between first and last meal is shorter than time from last meal until next days meal). If anyone is like me and can't really skip breakfast, nor at least delay first meal until noon. I've found drinking "bulletproof coffee" takes case of hunger and energy until actual lunch time. Despite media hype it can be just water, coffee - instant or grounded Turkish/Greek/Balkan style, espresso isn't enough liquid for full mug - with butter and coconut aka MTC oil. And of course if such coffee doesn't work for you as meal replacement. Then eggs, bacon/sausages, avocado (no bread, no beans, no orange/apple/etc juice) is a perfect (practically 0 carbs) meal that works for breakfast, brunch or dinner.

techcode 2y ago

Personal ADHD anecdote - being on low carb or keto was really helping with energy and focus. We were not exactly counting all the nutrients in details. Since we normally eat a lot of protein and fat (think almost mediterranean diet), we basically focused on eating as little carbs as possible - no bread/pasta/potatoes/etc (even whole banana would be too much carbs in a day). On the other hand - back as undiagnosed kid, I've used "white coffee" (milk, sugar and 10%~20% of normal coffee/caffeine) and even bits of chocolate throughout study/tests/exams.

P_I_Staker 2y ago
Yes, I've actually been wondering if the stuff about ADHD and sugar had more to do with correlation. A child with ADHD would want tons of sugar. It could have 0 to do with cause, and it would look exactly the same.

Asraelite 2y ago

This article is worded so weirdly. > "Twenty-five had suffered from ADHD since childhood" > "adults with childhood-onset ADHD." ADHD is always from birth and for life. They make it sound like something that can start at random. > "Extra weight equals extra risk for ADHD." This implies that the causation is reversed - that obesity somehow causes ADHD.

coldtea 2y ago
>ADHD is always from birth and for life. They make it sound like something that can start at random. In medical terms the "onset" matters, and that's not necessarily from birth. In fact it can be so later, that while the DSM had a maximum age at onset diagnostic criterion for "before 7 years of age" for ADHD, it's now advised to relax it to 12.
- Asraelite 2y ago
  By "onset" do you mean when it starts affecting their behavior in any way, or when it starts being noticeable/causing problems?
  - coldtea 2y ago
    Onset is when symptoms can be observed. In practice (and phenomenologically speaking) it's the same as "when it starts affecting their behavior in any way", since we can't say it affects it if we can't see any sign of it affecting it. Unless we can observe or measure (and unless we do observe or measure) we'd just be assuming that "of course it does". Which might be a good assumption, but it would still be an assumption.