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smart devs who like to iterate fast and build awesome software will leave rapidly when bogged down with paperwork and compulsory training courses. And you end

smart devs who like to iterate fast and build awesome software will leave rapidly when bogged down with paperwork and compulsory training courses. And you end up left with only mediocre devs who just want to take the salary and be home by 5pm because they care far more about their family/hobbies/life more than the quality of the app they're building at work.

jdgoesmarching 3y ago
Yeah imagine those weirdos who care more about their family and lives over the app they build at work. If your company relies on no-lifers to be successful, you’re running a bad company. This is a management issue.
framapotari 3y ago
> And you end up left with only mediocre devs who just want to take the salary and be home by 5pm because they care far more about their family/hobbies/life more than the quality of the app they're building at work. I think it's amazing that in your mind this is a negative thing.
- triceratops 3y ago
  I think it's the not caring about quality before 5pm that GP was calling out.
  - framapotari 3y ago
    Maybe, I'm not sure though. The "because" part is pretty directly saying that caring more about your family/hobbies/life than the app you're building at work is what makes them mediocre developers.
    - developerDan 3y ago
      “Because that’s _all_ they care about”
      - framapotari 2y ago
        That wasn't the quote. Why did you use quotation marks?
- FredPret 3y ago
  It's of course a very positive thing, but so is creating something great for other people to use. The economic prosperity that affords us the opportunity to spend leisure time with our loved ones comes exclusively from great creations.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    You don’t necessarily have to disregard family/hobbies/life in order to make great creations at work. One can still do great things clocking in at 9AM and clocking out at 5PM. It’s a myth that all great progress comes from Code Ninjas grinding 100 hour weeks, a myth that benefits companies and VC investors only.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Yes I agree - I’m just saying that there’s good things to be done at home and at work and the two must be in balance over the course of a lifetime, or else society decays.
seabird 3y ago
Something about this makes me cringe. Not sure exactly what. I think it's the idea of "iterate fast and build awesome software" as it pertains to high integrity systems. You don't iterate fast or slow when dealing with this shit. You do it at the exact speed you need to to fully understand the domain, failure modes, validation processes, etc. Similarly, you don't write "awesome software", you write exactly what is needed -- nothing more, nothing less, and what is there needs to go bang every time. There is no reason to believe an enthusiastic day-tripper who starts getting bored when the grueling FMEA, design validation, etc. starts to kick in is a better choice than the salaryman who's prepared to do what needs to be done for the next 10+ years of the product lifecycle. I say this as somebody that worked on an unreleased product that was on the cusp of safety critical and am glad that it didn't go to production in hindsight. It desperately needed less "awesome" software and a lot more "paperwork".
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  I don't think anyone here wants to hear this or understand it, but SWE work needs a hard reality check. I think a lot has been lost in the swirl of easy six figure salaries and recruiters constantly nagging you to jump ship and come work on awesome xyz. A downpour of VC money doing billion dollar shotgun blasts hoping to find just one gem. Let me put it this way: If you had a team of EE's and ME's who all made between $150k and $250k, you would basically have the cream of the crop. A team that could make mars rovers or infallible pacemakers. But a team of SWEs making that much? You get buggy weight loss apps and serially broken web access portals.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    There are a variety of factors, not all of which may upend things but some probably will at least for certain classes of SWEs. Remote opportunities in lower cost areas, AI, and a glut of people who jumped in because that’s where the dollars were are a few that come to mind. Doesn’t mean that competent SWEs will be destitute but salaries will probably trend more towards other typical engineering salaries—solid middle class professional salaries.
phone8675309 3y ago
> smart devs who like to iterate fast and build awesome software will leave rapidly when bogged down with paperwork and compulsory training courses Sure, when the market was hot this was most likely the case, but not everyone lives in the Bay Area and the choice of jobs that _aren't_ like this is much more slim.

jdgoesmarching 3y ago

Yeah imagine those weirdos who care more about their family and lives over the app they build at work. If your company relies on no-lifers to be successful, you’re running a bad company. This is a management issue.

framapotari 3y ago

> And you end up left with only mediocre devs who just want to take the salary and be home by 5pm because they care far more about their family/hobbies/life more than the quality of the app they're building at work. I think it's amazing that in your mind this is a negative thing.

triceratops 3y ago
I think it's the not caring about quality before 5pm that GP was calling out.
- framapotari 3y ago
  Maybe, I'm not sure though. The "because" part is pretty directly saying that caring more about your family/hobbies/life than the app you're building at work is what makes them mediocre developers.
  - developerDan 3y ago
    “Because that’s _all_ they care about”
    - framapotari 2y ago
      That wasn't the quote. Why did you use quotation marks?
FredPret 3y ago
It's of course a very positive thing, but so is creating something great for other people to use. The economic prosperity that affords us the opportunity to spend leisure time with our loved ones comes exclusively from great creations.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  You don’t necessarily have to disregard family/hobbies/life in order to make great creations at work. One can still do great things clocking in at 9AM and clocking out at 5PM. It’s a myth that all great progress comes from Code Ninjas grinding 100 hour weeks, a myth that benefits companies and VC investors only.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Yes I agree - I’m just saying that there’s good things to be done at home and at work and the two must be in balance over the course of a lifetime, or else society decays.

seabird 3y ago

Something about this makes me cringe. Not sure exactly what. I think it's the idea of "iterate fast and build awesome software" as it pertains to high integrity systems. You don't iterate fast or slow when dealing with this shit. You do it at the exact speed you need to to fully understand the domain, failure modes, validation processes, etc. Similarly, you don't write "awesome software", you write exactly what is needed -- nothing more, nothing less, and what is there needs to go bang every time. There is no reason to believe an enthusiastic day-tripper who starts getting bored when the grueling FMEA, design validation, etc. starts to kick in is a better choice than the salaryman who's prepared to do what needs to be done for the next 10+ years of the product lifecycle. I say this as somebody that worked on an unreleased product that was on the cusp of safety critical and am glad that it didn't go to production in hindsight. It desperately needed less "awesome" software and a lot more "paperwork".

Workaccount2 3y ago
I don't think anyone here wants to hear this or understand it, but SWE work needs a hard reality check. I think a lot has been lost in the swirl of easy six figure salaries and recruiters constantly nagging you to jump ship and come work on awesome xyz. A downpour of VC money doing billion dollar shotgun blasts hoping to find just one gem. Let me put it this way: If you had a team of EE's and ME's who all made between $150k and $250k, you would basically have the cream of the crop. A team that could make mars rovers or infallible pacemakers. But a team of SWEs making that much? You get buggy weight loss apps and serially broken web access portals.
- ghaff 3y ago
  There are a variety of factors, not all of which may upend things but some probably will at least for certain classes of SWEs. Remote opportunities in lower cost areas, AI, and a glut of people who jumped in because that’s where the dollars were are a few that come to mind. Doesn’t mean that competent SWEs will be destitute but salaries will probably trend more towards other typical engineering salaries—solid middle class professional salaries.

phone8675309 3y ago

> smart devs who like to iterate fast and build awesome software will leave rapidly when bogged down with paperwork and compulsory training courses Sure, when the market was hot this was most likely the case, but not everyone lives in the Bay Area and the choice of jobs that _aren't_ like this is much more slim.