7 ms·

Autopsy Cardiac Findings in 2 Adolescents Following Second Covid-19 Vaccine Dose

32 points by typeofhuman 2y ago

cooper_ganglia 2y ago
My dad got Covid twice, and simultaneously had pneumonia with it once. I was afraid for his life, so I recommended he get the vaccine because I didn’t want to lose my dad. Ever since then, he’s been incredibly fatigued, his O2 levels have consistently been under 90%, and his memory is all but gone. He misspeaks, forgets things, and misremembers details. He’s still young, just in his 50s. I’ve felt bad every day since recommending he get jabbed with a fast-tracked experimental vaccine, because I feel responsible for negatively affecting his health. I’m not anti-vax in any other way, but there is absolutely a 0% chance I would recommend anyone, in any context, to consider this vaccine.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- MattPalmer1086 2y ago
  I would not beat yourself up on this. All vaccines or medications have some risk. The risk from this vaccine has been shown to be low, and as you say, the actual disease made him extremely ill already. It was perfectly reasonable advice to give. The symptoms sound more like long Covid though than vaccine related health issues (e.g. myocarditis).
- robxorb 2y ago
  Sorry about your dad, but should you feel bad? Free discussion back then was so stifled many didn't even realise it wasn't being had. FWIW, an organisation called FLCCC established in early 2020 to deal with COVID, also now has a protocol for dealing with various issues post-vaccine: https://covid19criticalcare.com/treatment-protocols/ https://covid19criticalcare.com/treatment-protocols/
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    This site promotes ivermectin. It is a site for cranks and frauds. Stay away from the right wing crazy, folks.
    - lambdaba 2y ago
      Yeah, why would you give anything a try when you're in a bad situation, if that thing is even remotely associated with the "right wing"? Just don't do anything, follow the science, the CDC, the WHO, etc. Don't even dare to look elsewhere.
      - nullindividual 2y ago
        I dared! I dared! And came up with this: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/miscellaneous-drugs/ivermectin/ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/mis... > Ivermectin is not approved by the FDA for the treatment of any viral infection, including COVID-19 Please stop spreading misinformation about COVID.
        lambdaba 2y ago
        I have not said a single word about ivermectin.
        nullindividual 2y ago
        Your source did -- good enough to discredit them.
        cooper_ganglia 2y ago
        The FDA also said that the vaccine was safe. Those vaccines are now being pulled by the company that produced them, citing cases where the vaccine actually damaged the individuals who took them and gave them TTS. The existence of “Misinformation” is predicated on the idea that you have correct information. You believe you have correct information because of an appeal to authority via the FDA. However, the FDA’s word in a post-COVID world unfortunately means very little to me anymore. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/28/astrazeneca-admits-covid-vaccine-causes-rare-side-effect/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/28/astrazeneca-admi...
- ryandvm 2y ago
  I'm having trouble following your logic. Aren't the symptoms you're describing commonly associated with long COVID? As far as I'm aware, people that were vaccinated that didn't get COVID don't have any of those symptoms.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    You're correct. The OPs father has long-COVID. It is unrelated to any vaccine.
  - cooper_ganglia 2y ago
    I’ll parrot what he’s heard from multiple doctors: Long COVID is exacerbated by the vaccine, since the primary issue was an overexposure to the spike protein. Getting COVID is bad enough, but for him specifically, getting the vaccine continued to overwhelm his body and made his symptoms worse and last longer. I think 95% of people can get the vaccine and be fine. But for the 5% of people who it harms, it just wasn’t worth it to push everyone to get the vaccine. In many ways, we would’ve been better off in the long-term just allowing COVID to run its course, imo.
    - AstralStorm 2y ago
      Can you cite the source on this interesting assertion, since that hypothesis was I believe discredited, and a survival of a modified or partial virus is the more likely one that's being researched? In that it being similar to having shingles in a sense but of a different mechanism.
      - cooper_ganglia 2y ago
        The source was a few of the doctors that were helping him. I don’t know their sources, but he seems like he’s gotten better since working with them. At this point, I don’t really care if it’s long COVID or the vaccine or whatever, I’m not invested in any of the anti-vax stuff, I just want my dad back to his whole, healthy self, and seeing him struggle to walk around when, before Covid, he had more energy than me makes me feel frustrated and sad. I just want something that works! It’s certainly taught me to never take my health for granted.
- nullindividual 2y ago
  The symptoms sound exactly the same as my mid-30s unvaxed long-COVID friend.
- lambdaba 2y ago
  I think it's def possible to recover. It's at the very least worth trying, research high-dose niacin (gram dosages) and Dmitry Kats.
- boomskats 2y ago
  It might not help your dad, and I'm not advising or recommending anything here, but I personally found NAC to be effective at helping me fully recover from COVID the times I've been sick and supplemented with it. Anecdotally, so have my friends and parents. N-acetylcysteine is well known and widely used as the (only, afaik?) treatment for paracetamol overdose, so it's pretty well researched. Anecdotally, again, it also helps with brain fog (according to the nootropics community). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10390689/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10390689/
brabel 2y ago
Can someone translate the text from medical language into plain English? It seems they found out that the vaccine can be linked to the deaths because the scars in the organs look different than what they would without the vaccine? If that's the case, does that actually mean the vaccines were worse than more traditional ones (I mean, I think very few male teenagers died because of this, and I suppose that with most vaccines, there will be extremely rare cases of people reacting fatally to them??)?
- weberer 2y ago
  You don't need to read the full study, just the summary paragraphs at the beginning. >Context They already knew going into the study that the vaccine caused myocarditis. >Objective To do a biopsy and see if they can find anything abnormal about this type of myocarditis >Design They're doing an autopsy of two teenage boys who died shortly after taking the shot >Results This form of myocarditis is abnormal. Its the result of heart injury caused by a family of neurotransmitters called catecholamines. >Conclusions The mechanism of injury was likely due to a cytokine storm, in which the body kept producing cytokines and catecholamines in a feedback loop. Knowing how to treat cytokine storms could prevent future deaths.
  - difosfor 2y ago
    Didn't Covid also cause cytokine storms? Couldn't this have been caused by the disease instead of the vaccination?
    - weberer 2y ago
      >SARS-CoV-2 was not detected by postmortem swab (reverse transcriptase–polymerase chain reaction assay) in either boy.
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    In short, the mechanism in those rarest of rare cases is not typical even for immune related cardiomyopathy, but it is important to evaluate chances of it happening for future vaccine adjuvants and administration routes. The adjuvants used in the COVID vaccines are rather hardcore as far as these things go, hence the common side effects (non-cardiac). For what they do, it is rather remarkable on how safe the thing turns out... And they have to be, or the response is worse. The chances are side effects could be reduced if we get the mucosal vaccines ready.
robxorb 2y ago
"2022". (Back when talking about it got you cancelled...)
boomskats 2y ago
It will be very interesting to see the 'media reaction' to this, compared to the AZ vaccine blood clots scandal - especially taking into consideration the ideological and commercial differences between the two. I won't be surprised if it doesn't make it into the mainstream at all, at least not in the anglosphere. Have there been any other similar findings for any of the other vaccines?
ungreased0675 2y ago
I’m glad we can be curious about this kind of science again. Hope more research continues to be published.
- cooper_ganglia 2y ago
  Nevermind! Post got flagged and is no longer visible to those who haven't already commented! I usually love the moderation of this site, but this seems really weird imo when it's not even very polarizing, it's literally just a relevant medical article that started to pick up steam on HN but got quashed. :(

32 points by typeofhuman 2y ago

My dad got Covid twice, and simultaneously had pneumonia with it once. I was afraid for his life, so I recommended he get the vaccine because I didn’t want to lose my dad. Ever since then, he’s been incredibly fatigued, his O2 levels have consistently been under 90%, and his memory is all but gone. He misspeaks, forgets things, and misremembers details. He’s still young, just in his 50s. I’ve felt bad every day since recommending he get jabbed with a fast-tracked experimental vaccine, because I feel responsible for negatively affecting his health. I’m not anti-vax in any other way, but there is absolutely a 0% chance I would recommend anyone, in any context, to consider this vaccine.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
MattPalmer1086 2y ago
I would not beat yourself up on this. All vaccines or medications have some risk. The risk from this vaccine has been shown to be low, and as you say, the actual disease made him extremely ill already. It was perfectly reasonable advice to give. The symptoms sound more like long Covid though than vaccine related health issues (e.g. myocarditis).
robxorb 2y ago
Sorry about your dad, but should you feel bad? Free discussion back then was so stifled many didn't even realise it wasn't being had. FWIW, an organisation called FLCCC established in early 2020 to deal with COVID, also now has a protocol for dealing with various issues post-vaccine: https://covid19criticalcare.com/treatment-protocols/ https://covid19criticalcare.com/treatment-protocols/
- nullindividual 2y ago
  This site promotes ivermectin. It is a site for cranks and frauds. Stay away from the right wing crazy, folks.
  - lambdaba 2y ago
    Yeah, why would you give anything a try when you're in a bad situation, if that thing is even remotely associated with the "right wing"? Just don't do anything, follow the science, the CDC, the WHO, etc. Don't even dare to look elsewhere.
    - nullindividual 2y ago
      I dared! I dared! And came up with this: https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/miscellaneous-drugs/ivermectin/ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/mis... > Ivermectin is not approved by the FDA for the treatment of any viral infection, including COVID-19 Please stop spreading misinformation about COVID.
      - lambdaba 2y ago
        I have not said a single word about ivermectin.
        nullindividual 2y ago
        Your source did -- good enough to discredit them.
      - cooper_ganglia 2y ago
        The FDA also said that the vaccine was safe. Those vaccines are now being pulled by the company that produced them, citing cases where the vaccine actually damaged the individuals who took them and gave them TTS. The existence of “Misinformation” is predicated on the idea that you have correct information. You believe you have correct information because of an appeal to authority via the FDA. However, the FDA’s word in a post-COVID world unfortunately means very little to me anymore. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/28/astrazeneca-admits-covid-vaccine-causes-rare-side-effect/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/28/astrazeneca-admi...
ryandvm 2y ago
I'm having trouble following your logic. Aren't the symptoms you're describing commonly associated with long COVID? As far as I'm aware, people that were vaccinated that didn't get COVID don't have any of those symptoms.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- nullindividual 2y ago
  You're correct. The OPs father has long-COVID. It is unrelated to any vaccine.
- cooper_ganglia 2y ago
  I’ll parrot what he’s heard from multiple doctors: Long COVID is exacerbated by the vaccine, since the primary issue was an overexposure to the spike protein. Getting COVID is bad enough, but for him specifically, getting the vaccine continued to overwhelm his body and made his symptoms worse and last longer. I think 95% of people can get the vaccine and be fine. But for the 5% of people who it harms, it just wasn’t worth it to push everyone to get the vaccine. In many ways, we would’ve been better off in the long-term just allowing COVID to run its course, imo.
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    Can you cite the source on this interesting assertion, since that hypothesis was I believe discredited, and a survival of a modified or partial virus is the more likely one that's being researched? In that it being similar to having shingles in a sense but of a different mechanism.
    - cooper_ganglia 2y ago
      The source was a few of the doctors that were helping him. I don’t know their sources, but he seems like he’s gotten better since working with them. At this point, I don’t really care if it’s long COVID or the vaccine or whatever, I’m not invested in any of the anti-vax stuff, I just want my dad back to his whole, healthy self, and seeing him struggle to walk around when, before Covid, he had more energy than me makes me feel frustrated and sad. I just want something that works! It’s certainly taught me to never take my health for granted.
nullindividual 2y ago
The symptoms sound exactly the same as my mid-30s unvaxed long-COVID friend.
lambdaba 2y ago
I think it's def possible to recover. It's at the very least worth trying, research high-dose niacin (gram dosages) and Dmitry Kats.
boomskats 2y ago
It might not help your dad, and I'm not advising or recommending anything here, but I personally found NAC to be effective at helping me fully recover from COVID the times I've been sick and supplemented with it. Anecdotally, so have my friends and parents. N-acetylcysteine is well known and widely used as the (only, afaik?) treatment for paracetamol overdose, so it's pretty well researched. Anecdotally, again, it also helps with brain fog (according to the nootropics community). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10390689/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10390689/

brabel 2y ago

Can someone translate the text from medical language into plain English? It seems they found out that the vaccine can be linked to the deaths because the scars in the organs look different than what they would without the vaccine? If that's the case, does that actually mean the vaccines were worse than more traditional ones (I mean, I think very few male teenagers died because of this, and I suppose that with most vaccines, there will be extremely rare cases of people reacting fatally to them??)?

weberer 2y ago
You don't need to read the full study, just the summary paragraphs at the beginning. >Context They already knew going into the study that the vaccine caused myocarditis. >Objective To do a biopsy and see if they can find anything abnormal about this type of myocarditis >Design They're doing an autopsy of two teenage boys who died shortly after taking the shot >Results This form of myocarditis is abnormal. Its the result of heart injury caused by a family of neurotransmitters called catecholamines. >Conclusions The mechanism of injury was likely due to a cytokine storm, in which the body kept producing cytokines and catecholamines in a feedback loop. Knowing how to treat cytokine storms could prevent future deaths.
- difosfor 2y ago
  Didn't Covid also cause cytokine storms? Couldn't this have been caused by the disease instead of the vaccination?
  - weberer 2y ago
    >SARS-CoV-2 was not detected by postmortem swab (reverse transcriptase–polymerase chain reaction assay) in either boy.
- AstralStorm 2y ago
  In short, the mechanism in those rarest of rare cases is not typical even for immune related cardiomyopathy, but it is important to evaluate chances of it happening for future vaccine adjuvants and administration routes. The adjuvants used in the COVID vaccines are rather hardcore as far as these things go, hence the common side effects (non-cardiac). For what they do, it is rather remarkable on how safe the thing turns out... And they have to be, or the response is worse. The chances are side effects could be reduced if we get the mucosal vaccines ready.

robxorb 2y ago

"2022". (Back when talking about it got you cancelled...)

boomskats 2y ago

It will be very interesting to see the 'media reaction' to this, compared to the AZ vaccine blood clots scandal - especially taking into consideration the ideological and commercial differences between the two. I won't be surprised if it doesn't make it into the mainstream at all, at least not in the anglosphere. Have there been any other similar findings for any of the other vaccines?

ungreased0675 2y ago

I’m glad we can be curious about this kind of science again. Hope more research continues to be published.

cooper_ganglia 2y ago
Nevermind! Post got flagged and is no longer visible to those who haven't already commented! I usually love the moderation of this site, but this seems really weird imo when it's not even very polarizing, it's literally just a relevant medical article that started to pick up steam on HN but got quashed. :(