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> The kind of absolute truth you are talking about may make sense when discussing philosophy or religion. Exactly—except you are talking about it, too. When yo

> The kind of absolute truth you are talking about may make sense when discussing philosophy or religion. Exactly—except you are talking about it, too. When you say “discovering underlying principles”, you are implying the idea of absolute truth where there is none—the principles are not discovered, they are modeled, and that model is our fallible human construct. It’s a similar mistake as where you wrote “explain”: every model (there should always be more than one) provides a metaphor that 1) first and foremost, jives with our preexisting understanding of the world, and 2) offers a lossy map of some part of [directly inaccessible] reality from a particular angle—but not any sort of explanation with absolute truth in mind. Unless you treat scientific method as something akin to religion, which is a common fallacy and philosophical laziness, it does not possess any explanatory powers—and that is very much by design.

jltsiren 2y ago
Now we come back to words gaining their meaning from usage. You are assigning meanings to words like "discovering", "principles", and "explain" that other people don't share. Particularly people doing science. Because these absolute philosophical meanings are impossible in the real world, they are also useless when discussing the reality. Reserving common words for impossible concepts would not make sense. It would only hinder communication.
- strogonoff 2y ago
  I can see what you mean. Then perhaps you could give a non-circular definition of what you mean by “underlying principles” and how that is different from any other prediction or model to deserve this distinct and quite strong-sounding term? or what you mean by “explain” that is different from “predict” or “model” to warrant such a distinctive term, and where exactly such explanatory activity fits within scientific method?
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Communication is inherently circular, and words don't have definitions. But people are often capable of discovering what a particular word means in a particular context. And other people can sometimes help that by giving useful explanations. Science is pretty much the same. We can often discover how the reality works, and use the discoveries to explain many things. Somehow that keeps happening all the time, even if we can never be fully sure about anything.
    - strogonoff 2y ago
      Any word can be given a definition, that’s how we communicate. A non-circular definition is a way to define what you mean by a term to another person. Again: scientific method does not explain. Religion or philosophy are about explaining. Scientific method is about experimentation and making testable predictions. What experiments we perform is determined by how we understand the world, and if there is any subsequent explanation about “how things really are” (a.k.a. “the underlying principles”) then it has nothing to do with scientific method which does not make such claims by design; that is untestable/unfalsifiable beliefs and a product of either philosophical or religious thinking. Since you insist on using specific words “explain” and “discover”, rather than more conventionally used in science “predict” or “model”, it implies they mean something different to you. I have provided the meanings of “explain” and “discover” I am familiar with, as it applies to the discussion at hand (which is about the philosophy of scientific process, underlying principles and truths about objectively existing reality). If you refuse to identify the meanings you are using those words in, I take it that you concede whatever point you had.
      - jltsiren 2y ago
        I've never met anyone capable of communicating with well-defined terms. Or giving definitions that actually match the real-word usage of the term. And all definitions are ultimately circular, because the number of words is finite. In any chain of definitions, you will eventually have to use a term you were trying to define. What you call the scientific method is a philosophical construct that has little to do with actual science. And philosophers disagree on whether it's a good ideal for science. Given that it's neither a good description of science nor a universal ideal for science, I wouldn't focus too much on it when discussing science.

jltsiren 2y ago

Now we come back to words gaining their meaning from usage. You are assigning meanings to words like "discovering", "principles", and "explain" that other people don't share. Particularly people doing science. Because these absolute philosophical meanings are impossible in the real world, they are also useless when discussing the reality. Reserving common words for impossible concepts would not make sense. It would only hinder communication.

strogonoff 2y ago
I can see what you mean. Then perhaps you could give a non-circular definition of what you mean by “underlying principles” and how that is different from any other prediction or model to deserve this distinct and quite strong-sounding term? or what you mean by “explain” that is different from “predict” or “model” to warrant such a distinctive term, and where exactly such explanatory activity fits within scientific method?
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Communication is inherently circular, and words don't have definitions. But people are often capable of discovering what a particular word means in a particular context. And other people can sometimes help that by giving useful explanations. Science is pretty much the same. We can often discover how the reality works, and use the discoveries to explain many things. Somehow that keeps happening all the time, even if we can never be fully sure about anything.
  - strogonoff 2y ago
    Any word can be given a definition, that’s how we communicate. A non-circular definition is a way to define what you mean by a term to another person. Again: scientific method does not explain. Religion or philosophy are about explaining. Scientific method is about experimentation and making testable predictions. What experiments we perform is determined by how we understand the world, and if there is any subsequent explanation about “how things really are” (a.k.a. “the underlying principles”) then it has nothing to do with scientific method which does not make such claims by design; that is untestable/unfalsifiable beliefs and a product of either philosophical or religious thinking. Since you insist on using specific words “explain” and “discover”, rather than more conventionally used in science “predict” or “model”, it implies they mean something different to you. I have provided the meanings of “explain” and “discover” I am familiar with, as it applies to the discussion at hand (which is about the philosophy of scientific process, underlying principles and truths about objectively existing reality). If you refuse to identify the meanings you are using those words in, I take it that you concede whatever point you had.
    - jltsiren 2y ago
      I've never met anyone capable of communicating with well-defined terms. Or giving definitions that actually match the real-word usage of the term. And all definitions are ultimately circular, because the number of words is finite. In any chain of definitions, you will eventually have to use a term you were trying to define. What you call the scientific method is a philosophical construct that has little to do with actual science. And philosophers disagree on whether it's a good ideal for science. Given that it's neither a good description of science nor a universal ideal for science, I wouldn't focus too much on it when discussing science.