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The guy is a CS prof at Princeton. He worked with Mozilla on Do Not Track in HTTP headers. It's not some random teacher. I think he has a little idea of what UX

by ohmyiv 2y ago

The guy is a CS prof at Princeton. He worked with Mozilla on Do Not Track in HTTP headers. It's not some random teacher. I think he has a little idea of what UX should at least look like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvind_Narayanan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvind_Narayanan

bena 2y ago
He might know it is important, but if you look at his CV, it's mostly non-user facing issues. And that's not to diminish what he's done. I don't expect everyone to be an expert in all fields. I wouldn't get someone who only wrote microcontrollers to redesign my frontend. And I wouldn't get a CS professor to write my microcontroller software. I wouldn't go to GP for cancer and I wouldn't go to a Oncologist for physical therapy.
- infamouscow 2y ago
  Even the blind complain about how terrible the UX of Blackboard is. Their opinion certainly holds more weight than whatever pathetic appeal to authority you're trying to make. Pointing to some ink on paper isn't some magic spell that compels others to take you seriously. It only convinces people that already appeal to authority.
  - bena 2y ago
    Accessibility is a whole other can of worms. I suspect blind people have issues with a lot of software. And I'm not the one appealing to authority. That's the people saying the author is a CS professor so he's obviously right without actually engaging in the claims.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ohmyiv 2y ago
      I brought that up because you automatically assumed it was just some random teacher that knows nothing about UX. Maybe if you took a second to realise it wasn't some random teacher, I wouldn't have mentioned it. Engaging in claims? You immediately dismissed the opinion when you read about clicks. So don't try and say people aren't engaging the claims. You don't even use the software so how can you say he's wrong? If the user is unhappy, then maybe take a look at the reasons. But you just dismiss someone else's opinion because it doesn't match yours without even seeing what he's talking about. And that's why everyone is bringing up the question of if _you_ used it. Because what the end user experiences is what UX focuses on. If you don't know how the workflow of blackboard, you can't say that 15 clicks isn't a nothing burger and someone who uses the software has an irrelevant opinion.
- ohmyiv 2y ago
  Describing his work as "its mostly non-user facing" isn't as valid as an argument as you think it is. CS professionals, professors included, tend to follow (not work in) multiple disciplines. But by using your reasoning, does that mean any past critical comments you made on topics outside of your UX profession is moot? No, I think you mayknow stuff outside of UX. So, I don't understand your reasoning to immediately dismiss OP. But back to UX, so user interaction and response has no meaning in UX? Isn't the X in UX for experience? How do you judge how useful UX is without feedback? My understanding of UX as a web developer, is that if the user is unhappy about how long it takes to access something, then the issue should at least be looked at. Maybe it can't be improved, maybe it can. It's not something to dismiss. Anyhow, have you ever used blackboard? It seems from other comments that you haven't. If not, then maybe your comments are the unnecessary ones? Because how can one say the UX is okay without ever using it? I have used blackboard and canvas for years. Their UX sucks.
  - bena 2y ago
    I do agree that Blackboard is likely horrible. That's not in debate here. And their UX likely does suck. But knowing something sucks is not the same as knowing why that thing sucks. And "number of clicks to perform action" is not a useful barometer on the usability of a product. And I'm not dismissing his opinion because he's not a UX expert. And I'm not dismissing his opinion of the quality of Blackboard. I'm dismissing his opinion on why Blackboard is bad because he's focusing on the wrong thing. Much like you and the other people trying to argue with me. They're trying to paint me as defending Blackboard. I'm not. And I'm additionally saying that it's understandable that he doesn't know why it's bad because it's not his focus. There's no fault in that. Whether or not I've used Blackboard is moot because I'm not discussing the UX of Blackboard, I'm discussing the use of the metric "number of clicks". It's a bad metric. Regardless of Blackboard's usability.
    - ohmyiv 2y ago
      No, number of clicks isnt a _bad_ metric, but it isn't the most important. But when it comes to _UX_, user experience is important. If there are a lot of people complaining that it takes too many clicks, then it's quite possible that the workflow can be reduced somehow. And it's not just this one guy that has issues with Blackboard. There's been numerous end users complaining about usability for a long time. Regardless if how you feel about the number of clicks, it still is something to examine. Do some searches about it. Many, many websites will say clicks aren't the most important thing, but it is something to think about. Immediately dismissing someone because you don't feel it's important (even though other UX designers do) is a fault of yours, not the end user.

by ohmyiv 2y ago

bena 2y ago

He might know it is important, but if you look at his CV, it's mostly non-user facing issues. And that's not to diminish what he's done. I don't expect everyone to be an expert in all fields. I wouldn't get someone who only wrote microcontrollers to redesign my frontend. And I wouldn't get a CS professor to write my microcontroller software. I wouldn't go to GP for cancer and I wouldn't go to a Oncologist for physical therapy.

infamouscow 2y ago
Even the blind complain about how terrible the UX of Blackboard is. Their opinion certainly holds more weight than whatever pathetic appeal to authority you're trying to make. Pointing to some ink on paper isn't some magic spell that compels others to take you seriously. It only convinces people that already appeal to authority.
- bena 2y ago
  Accessibility is a whole other can of worms. I suspect blind people have issues with a lot of software. And I'm not the one appealing to authority. That's the people saying the author is a CS professor so he's obviously right without actually engaging in the claims.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ohmyiv 2y ago
    I brought that up because you automatically assumed it was just some random teacher that knows nothing about UX. Maybe if you took a second to realise it wasn't some random teacher, I wouldn't have mentioned it. Engaging in claims? You immediately dismissed the opinion when you read about clicks. So don't try and say people aren't engaging the claims. You don't even use the software so how can you say he's wrong? If the user is unhappy, then maybe take a look at the reasons. But you just dismiss someone else's opinion because it doesn't match yours without even seeing what he's talking about. And that's why everyone is bringing up the question of if _you_ used it. Because what the end user experiences is what UX focuses on. If you don't know how the workflow of blackboard, you can't say that 15 clicks isn't a nothing burger and someone who uses the software has an irrelevant opinion.
ohmyiv 2y ago
Describing his work as "its mostly non-user facing" isn't as valid as an argument as you think it is. CS professionals, professors included, tend to follow (not work in) multiple disciplines. But by using your reasoning, does that mean any past critical comments you made on topics outside of your UX profession is moot? No, I think you mayknow stuff outside of UX. So, I don't understand your reasoning to immediately dismiss OP. But back to UX, so user interaction and response has no meaning in UX? Isn't the X in UX for experience? How do you judge how useful UX is without feedback? My understanding of UX as a web developer, is that if the user is unhappy about how long it takes to access something, then the issue should at least be looked at. Maybe it can't be improved, maybe it can. It's not something to dismiss. Anyhow, have you ever used blackboard? It seems from other comments that you haven't. If not, then maybe your comments are the unnecessary ones? Because how can one say the UX is okay without ever using it? I have used blackboard and canvas for years. Their UX sucks.
- bena 2y ago
  I do agree that Blackboard is likely horrible. That's not in debate here. And their UX likely does suck. But knowing something sucks is not the same as knowing why that thing sucks. And "number of clicks to perform action" is not a useful barometer on the usability of a product. And I'm not dismissing his opinion because he's not a UX expert. And I'm not dismissing his opinion of the quality of Blackboard. I'm dismissing his opinion on why Blackboard is bad because he's focusing on the wrong thing. Much like you and the other people trying to argue with me. They're trying to paint me as defending Blackboard. I'm not. And I'm additionally saying that it's understandable that he doesn't know why it's bad because it's not his focus. There's no fault in that. Whether or not I've used Blackboard is moot because I'm not discussing the UX of Blackboard, I'm discussing the use of the metric "number of clicks". It's a bad metric. Regardless of Blackboard's usability.
  - ohmyiv 2y ago
    No, number of clicks isnt a _bad_ metric, but it isn't the most important. But when it comes to _UX_, user experience is important. If there are a lot of people complaining that it takes too many clicks, then it's quite possible that the workflow can be reduced somehow. And it's not just this one guy that has issues with Blackboard. There's been numerous end users complaining about usability for a long time. Regardless if how you feel about the number of clicks, it still is something to examine. Do some searches about it. Many, many websites will say clicks aren't the most important thing, but it is something to think about. Immediately dismissing someone because you don't feel it's important (even though other UX designers do) is a fault of yours, not the end user.