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Blocking them from buildings doesn't seem to be happening. As I've acknowledged there's been a fair amount of verbal harassment (and obnoxious signage), some o

Blocking them from buildings doesn't seem to be happening. As I've acknowledged there's been a fair amount of verbal harassment (and obnoxious signage), some of it arguably antisemitic. Deplorable thought it is, it gets into a different topic (from the issue of people being supposedly blocked from campus areas due to their perceived ethnic classification). It's also not been a feature of the encampments as such that I'm aware of (but I could be wrong of course). More like a feature of spontaneous confrontations / street actions. Addendum (edit): To the extent that some of these people protest Israel specifically (as no doubt many of them do) -- it's usually against Israel in its current (effectively Revisionist) Zionist configuration, aka "Israel as a rigidly defined ethnostate", built on as much territory as it can reasonably hold onto and with a supremacist attitude towards non-Jewish inhabitants. Not the "legitimacy of a Jewish homeland" in principle, which can mean a lot of things (such as the idea of a "Jewish homeland" that is genuinely democratic and not determined by the fact of a Jewish supermajority).

tptacek 2y ago
I've seen videos with people being blocked out of spaces, but like, those spaces presumably have like 9 other entrances that aren't being blocked, and people are challenging the protesters to make a point. Who knows? To the extent it isn't happening at all, it doesn't matter. None of these are big issues for me, but there's a whole "the Good Jews" phenomenon that American Jewish people are keyed in on (which I hear about from friends, who all revile Netanyahu and oppose the Gaza invasion --- ironic that I'm disclaiming that!), and you said something that pricked my ears up about that. That's all. I'm not rebutting you.
rendall 2y ago
> Deplorable though it is, it gets into a different topic I am going to argue something different, and I would like you to seriously entertain the idea. The argument is: anti-Semitic harassment and anti-Zionism are part-and-parcel. Consider: imagine for the sake of argument a universe that is exactly like ours, except in that universe, Israel is prosecuting the war in Gaza reasonably well, as perfectly as it is possible to prosecute any war. They actually do minimize civilian deaths, not commit any war crimes or genocide, ensure that aid gets where it needs to go. They simply want to get rid of Hamas. In that universe, the war is actually a measured and rational response to the Hamas provocations of that universe, October 7th actually happened, etc. Please answer honestly: in that universe, how do you think the world responds? Does Hamas still claim genocide? Does the "Gazan Ministry of Health" still issue a daily death toll that is strangely absent of combatants? Does the BBC and al-Jazeera, et. al. still quote those statistics with neither qualification nor caveat? Does South Africa still take Israel to ICJ? Does the UN security council still issue resolutions against Israel without reference to Hamas or the hostages? I believe that the answer to those questions would be identical to this universe. Would you agree? If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it? I believe most anti-Zionists would behave quite the same in that universe, because for them, Israel's existence is a problem, and the accusation of genocide is a tool in its dismantling.
- racional 2y ago
  In this purely hypothetical universe -- in which the Israeli government was acting in an at least arguably rational fashion in regard to securing a timely release of the hostages, and protecting the security of citizens otherwise; in which it wasn't concurrently stepping up its rampage in the West Bank because it thinks the world will be distracted by the much greater number of bodies piling up in Gaza; in which there was no Dahiya Doctrine -- What we have here is the "They're just going to criticize / hate Israel no matter what it does" defense which has been raised as a blanket response to pretty much any robust criticism of what Israel does, for several decades. Or to paraphrase only slightly how you put it: "Israel's existence is the problem, serious criticisms about what it does are tools for its dismantling." So to answer your question - of course no, I don't buy it. And yes, fundamentally the current response would be very different. There wouldn't be an ICJ case; there wouldn't be calls for sanctions against units like Netzah Yehuda for doing what they're currently doing out here in the real, actual world; etc. If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it? The same organizations that are the obvious answer to this question (independent journalists and human rights groups in and outside of Israel; UN bodies; forensic analysis teams, etc). In short, yes - in this science fiction universe, it would be a very different response. You're not going to agree of course, and that's fine. Your other bullet points seem to be ancillary: no one is acting on what Hamas is claiming about the ongoing genocide, for example. And the Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a huge red herring (even Israeli military intelligence considers them to be generally reliable and uses them in their briefings; US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc).
  - rendall 2y ago
    > Your other bullet points seem to be ancillary: no one is acting on what Hamas is claiming about the ongoing genocide, for example. And Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a huge red herring (even Israeli military intelligence considers them to be generally reliable and uses them in their briefings; US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc). Far from being "ancillary" or a "red herring", the Gaza Health Ministry statistics are central to the accusations against Israel of genocide. Weird you would even say that. And, no, neither Israel nor "Israeli intelligence" considers Gazan Health Ministry statistics accurate [1]. That's another weird thing to say. As for "US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc" I only found a single quote from a single US official, from one Barbara Leaf, Assistant Secretary of State, implying this [2]. I also found a quote from the same Voice of America article that "President Joe Biden has openly questioned figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas, which the U.S. classifies as a terrorist group" so... It's odd that you made so many hrm... exaggerations in such a short response. It's almost like you don't care about the accuracy of your statements? Surely that cannot be true. > etc Etc? What is the etc? You wouldn't have only two things to say and then write "etc" to imply there's more, would you? I refuse to believe it. [1] https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fat... [2] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-stands-firm-with-israel-amid-conflict-state-department-tells-voa/7348837.html https://www.voanews.com/a/us-stands-firm-with-israel-amid-co...

tptacek 2y ago

I've seen videos with people being blocked out of spaces, but like, those spaces presumably have like 9 other entrances that aren't being blocked, and people are challenging the protesters to make a point. Who knows? To the extent it isn't happening at all, it doesn't matter. None of these are big issues for me, but there's a whole "the Good Jews" phenomenon that American Jewish people are keyed in on (which I hear about from friends, who all revile Netanyahu and oppose the Gaza invasion --- ironic that I'm disclaiming that!), and you said something that pricked my ears up about that. That's all. I'm not rebutting you.

rendall 2y ago

> Deplorable though it is, it gets into a different topic I am going to argue something different, and I would like you to seriously entertain the idea. The argument is: anti-Semitic harassment and anti-Zionism are part-and-parcel. Consider: imagine for the sake of argument a universe that is exactly like ours, except in that universe, Israel is prosecuting the war in Gaza reasonably well, as perfectly as it is possible to prosecute any war. They actually do minimize civilian deaths, not commit any war crimes or genocide, ensure that aid gets where it needs to go. They simply want to get rid of Hamas. In that universe, the war is actually a measured and rational response to the Hamas provocations of that universe, October 7th actually happened, etc. Please answer honestly: in that universe, how do you think the world responds? Does Hamas still claim genocide? Does the "Gazan Ministry of Health" still issue a daily death toll that is strangely absent of combatants? Does the BBC and al-Jazeera, et. al. still quote those statistics with neither qualification nor caveat? Does South Africa still take Israel to ICJ? Does the UN security council still issue resolutions against Israel without reference to Hamas or the hostages? I believe that the answer to those questions would be identical to this universe. Would you agree? If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it? I believe most anti-Zionists would behave quite the same in that universe, because for them, Israel's existence is a problem, and the accusation of genocide is a tool in its dismantling.

racional 2y ago
In this purely hypothetical universe -- in which the Israeli government was acting in an at least arguably rational fashion in regard to securing a timely release of the hostages, and protecting the security of citizens otherwise; in which it wasn't concurrently stepping up its rampage in the West Bank because it thinks the world will be distracted by the much greater number of bodies piling up in Gaza; in which there was no Dahiya Doctrine -- What we have here is the "They're just going to criticize / hate Israel no matter what it does" defense which has been raised as a blanket response to pretty much any robust criticism of what Israel does, for several decades. Or to paraphrase only slightly how you put it: "Israel's existence is the problem, serious criticisms about what it does are tools for its dismantling." So to answer your question - of course no, I don't buy it. And yes, fundamentally the current response would be very different. There wouldn't be an ICJ case; there wouldn't be calls for sanctions against units like Netzah Yehuda for doing what they're currently doing out here in the real, actual world; etc. If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it? The same organizations that are the obvious answer to this question (independent journalists and human rights groups in and outside of Israel; UN bodies; forensic analysis teams, etc). In short, yes - in this science fiction universe, it would be a very different response. You're not going to agree of course, and that's fine. Your other bullet points seem to be ancillary: no one is acting on what Hamas is claiming about the ongoing genocide, for example. And the Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a huge red herring (even Israeli military intelligence considers them to be generally reliable and uses them in their briefings; US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc).
- rendall 2y ago
  > Your other bullet points seem to be ancillary: no one is acting on what Hamas is claiming about the ongoing genocide, for example. And Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a huge red herring (even Israeli military intelligence considers them to be generally reliable and uses them in their briefings; US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc). Far from being "ancillary" or a "red herring", the Gaza Health Ministry statistics are central to the accusations against Israel of genocide. Weird you would even say that. And, no, neither Israel nor "Israeli intelligence" considers Gazan Health Ministry statistics accurate [1]. That's another weird thing to say. As for "US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc" I only found a single quote from a single US official, from one Barbara Leaf, Assistant Secretary of State, implying this [2]. I also found a quote from the same Voice of America article that "President Joe Biden has openly questioned figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas, which the U.S. classifies as a terrorist group" so... It's odd that you made so many hrm... exaggerations in such a short response. It's almost like you don't care about the accuracy of your statements? Surely that cannot be true. > etc Etc? What is the etc? You wouldn't have only two things to say and then write "etc" to imply there's more, would you? I refuse to believe it. [1] https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fat... [2] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-stands-firm-with-israel-amid-conflict-state-department-tells-voa/7348837.html https://www.voanews.com/a/us-stands-firm-with-israel-amid-co...