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Why is it plain to you that people weren't blocked because they were Jewish? Because the encampments contained many Jewish organizers / participants (likely eq

Why is it plain to you that people weren't blocked because they were Jewish? Because the encampments contained many Jewish organizers / participants (likely equal to or greater than their proportion across the student body as a whole). The contention [is that] Jewish participation is allowed only for Jewish people who disavow substantial parts of their identity. I see what you're driving at, but overall it seems to be a weak and ancillary argument. It basically gets into the whole "if you reject / insult Zionism (or even the military campaign in Gaza itself) then you're insulting my religious/ethnic identity" line, which I just don't buy (neither do many Jews in fact, and in fact they find it rather insulting that one should presume that all Jews should automatically feel that way). I don't speak for JVP, so you'll have to take up issues about their dining plates / ephemeral Houthi endorsements with them.

tptacek 2y ago
Yeah, I don't know. If you're protesting the broad concept of Zionism, of the legitimacy of a Jewish homeland, then not allowing the participation of the majority of Jewish people who are (in that broad sense) Zionist makes sense. On the other hand, you can't be blocking their entrance to buildings, or singling them out for verbal harassment due solely to religious signifiers coupled with the fact that they're not echoing your chants, right? This doesn't seem all that complicated. Everybody is a little bit right, everybody is a little bit wrong, and a few people on both sides (SJP, Shai Davidai) are luridly wrong.
- racional 2y ago
  Blocking them from buildings doesn't seem to be happening. As I've acknowledged there's been a fair amount of verbal harassment (and obnoxious signage), some of it arguably antisemitic. Deplorable thought it is, it gets into a different topic (from the issue of people being supposedly blocked from campus areas due to their perceived ethnic classification). It's also not been a feature of the encampments as such that I'm aware of (but I could be wrong of course). More like a feature of spontaneous confrontations / street actions. Addendum (edit): To the extent that some of these people protest Israel specifically (as no doubt many of them do) -- it's usually against Israel in its current (effectively Revisionist) Zionist configuration, aka "Israel as a rigidly defined ethnostate", built on as much territory as it can reasonably hold onto and with a supremacist attitude towards non-Jewish inhabitants. Not the "legitimacy of a Jewish homeland" in principle, which can mean a lot of things (such as the idea of a "Jewish homeland" that is genuinely democratic and not determined by the fact of a Jewish supermajority).
  - tptacek 2y ago
    I've seen videos with people being blocked out of spaces, but like, those spaces presumably have like 9 other entrances that aren't being blocked, and people are challenging the protesters to make a point. Who knows? To the extent it isn't happening at all, it doesn't matter. None of these are big issues for me, but there's a whole "the Good Jews" phenomenon that American Jewish people are keyed in on (which I hear about from friends, who all revile Netanyahu and oppose the Gaza invasion --- ironic that I'm disclaiming that!), and you said something that pricked my ears up about that. That's all. I'm not rebutting you.
  - rendall 2y ago
    > Deplorable though it is, it gets into a different topic I am going to argue something different, and I would like you to seriously entertain the idea. The argument is: anti-Semitic harassment and anti-Zionism are part-and-parcel. Consider: imagine for the sake of argument a universe that is exactly like ours, except in that universe, Israel is prosecuting the war in Gaza reasonably well, as perfectly as it is possible to prosecute any war. They actually do minimize civilian deaths, not commit any war crimes or genocide, ensure that aid gets where it needs to go. They simply want to get rid of Hamas. In that universe, the war is actually a measured and rational response to the Hamas provocations of that universe, October 7th actually happened, etc. Please answer honestly: in that universe, how do you think the world responds? Does Hamas still claim genocide? Does the "Gazan Ministry of Health" still issue a daily death toll that is strangely absent of combatants? Does the BBC and al-Jazeera, et. al. still quote those statistics with neither qualification nor caveat? Does South Africa still take Israel to ICJ? Does the UN security council still issue resolutions against Israel without reference to Hamas or the hostages? I believe that the answer to those questions would be identical to this universe. Would you agree? If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it? I believe most anti-Zionists would behave quite the same in that universe, because for them, Israel's existence is a problem, and the accusation of genocide is a tool in its dismantling.
    - racional 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

Yeah, I don't know. If you're protesting the broad concept of Zionism, of the legitimacy of a Jewish homeland, then not allowing the participation of the majority of Jewish people who are (in that broad sense) Zionist makes sense. On the other hand, you can't be blocking their entrance to buildings, or singling them out for verbal harassment due solely to religious signifiers coupled with the fact that they're not echoing your chants, right? This doesn't seem all that complicated. Everybody is a little bit right, everybody is a little bit wrong, and a few people on both sides (SJP, Shai Davidai) are luridly wrong.

racional 2y ago
Blocking them from buildings doesn't seem to be happening. As I've acknowledged there's been a fair amount of verbal harassment (and obnoxious signage), some of it arguably antisemitic. Deplorable thought it is, it gets into a different topic (from the issue of people being supposedly blocked from campus areas due to their perceived ethnic classification). It's also not been a feature of the encampments as such that I'm aware of (but I could be wrong of course). More like a feature of spontaneous confrontations / street actions. Addendum (edit): To the extent that some of these people protest Israel specifically (as no doubt many of them do) -- it's usually against Israel in its current (effectively Revisionist) Zionist configuration, aka "Israel as a rigidly defined ethnostate", built on as much territory as it can reasonably hold onto and with a supremacist attitude towards non-Jewish inhabitants. Not the "legitimacy of a Jewish homeland" in principle, which can mean a lot of things (such as the idea of a "Jewish homeland" that is genuinely democratic and not determined by the fact of a Jewish supermajority).
- tptacek 2y ago
  I've seen videos with people being blocked out of spaces, but like, those spaces presumably have like 9 other entrances that aren't being blocked, and people are challenging the protesters to make a point. Who knows? To the extent it isn't happening at all, it doesn't matter. None of these are big issues for me, but there's a whole "the Good Jews" phenomenon that American Jewish people are keyed in on (which I hear about from friends, who all revile Netanyahu and oppose the Gaza invasion --- ironic that I'm disclaiming that!), and you said something that pricked my ears up about that. That's all. I'm not rebutting you.
- rendall 2y ago
  > Deplorable though it is, it gets into a different topic I am going to argue something different, and I would like you to seriously entertain the idea. The argument is: anti-Semitic harassment and anti-Zionism are part-and-parcel. Consider: imagine for the sake of argument a universe that is exactly like ours, except in that universe, Israel is prosecuting the war in Gaza reasonably well, as perfectly as it is possible to prosecute any war. They actually do minimize civilian deaths, not commit any war crimes or genocide, ensure that aid gets where it needs to go. They simply want to get rid of Hamas. In that universe, the war is actually a measured and rational response to the Hamas provocations of that universe, October 7th actually happened, etc. Please answer honestly: in that universe, how do you think the world responds? Does Hamas still claim genocide? Does the "Gazan Ministry of Health" still issue a daily death toll that is strangely absent of combatants? Does the BBC and al-Jazeera, et. al. still quote those statistics with neither qualification nor caveat? Does South Africa still take Israel to ICJ? Does the UN security council still issue resolutions against Israel without reference to Hamas or the hostages? I believe that the answer to those questions would be identical to this universe. Would you agree? If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it? I believe most anti-Zionists would behave quite the same in that universe, because for them, Israel's existence is a problem, and the accusation of genocide is a tool in its dismantling.
  - racional 2y ago