3 ms·

This is an exercise in externalities. Sure, maybe the cheap umbrella comes out ahead in a raw materials game: X number of crummy ones may be more eco-friendly t

This is an exercise in externalities. Sure, maybe the cheap umbrella comes out ahead in a raw materials game: X number of crummy ones may be more eco-friendly than a nice one that lasts Y times as long. As long as you don’t consider anything else, like the fact you have to employ Y times the person-hours to make the crummy ones, and Y times the freight to deliver them, and Y times the customer getting pissed off that their cheap umbrella broke and they have to take time out of their day to acquire a replacement. I swore off buying junky stuff a long time ago. Life’s too short to be surrounded by crap that’s going to break the first time you look at it wrong, student projects be damned. (That doesn’t mean I only buy luxury items. Far from it! You can get Levi’s Premium line jeans that last X longer than the discount store ones for far less than X times the price. I’ve worn the same pair of leather boots for 6 years now. I’ve had my Birkenstocks resoled several times now instead of throwing them out while the rest of the sandal’s in great shape. It’s usually pretty easy to find the quality version of a given thing for not much more than the junky one.)

nickff 3y ago
I agree with some of your points, but what about the frustration when someone breaks their nice & expensive umbrella by accident, or has it stolen from them? What about the inconvenience and anxiety of not wanting to lose it? What about not having a spare to lend (but actually give) to a friend or loved one?
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Those are valid concerns, but I've found I keep my nicer stuff way longer than the cheaper things they replace. I'm happy if I make it through a couple months with $30 sunglasses. I've had the same nicer ones for more than proportionally longer. For me, the difference is that I'm more watchful of the nice things. I'm not about to take off my good sunglasses and leave them somewhere that I'll forget about them. I know where my nice (not expensive, just nice and functional) water bottle is. I've kept the same pocket knife for many years because I'd go back and get it if I forgot to put it right back in my pocket after using it, which I wouldn't do, because it's nice and I subconsciously keep track of it. However, I'm not dogmatic about this stuff. I want to own my stuff and not have it own me. There's a half-empty six pack of dirt cheap portable umbrellas over next to my shoe rack so I can dole them out to my kids who'll inevitably lose them at school.
  - bch 3y ago
    >> I swore off buying junky stuff a long time ago. Life’s too short to be surrounded by crap that’s going to break the first time you look at it wrong, student projects be damned. > For me, the difference is that I'm more watchful of the nice things. Or, the items come to integrate themselves into personal rituals. Like you said, you want to own your things, and not vice-versa, so its nice to not stress over them, but have them joyfully integrated into your life.
    - kstrauser 3y ago
      For sure. Everyone here who doesn’t carry a bag knows the routine: you stand up to leave and pat your pockets to make sure they’re all filled with the expected things. I also have a glasses case that’s always holding either my regular glasses or sunglasses. My umbrella goes right to the umbrella holder. Huh, spelling it all out that sounds similar to my ADHD rituals, for good reason. I’ve done so many things until they’re automatic habits.
- hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
  Insurance. The ability to quickly and more broadly insure any item, that would actually be a great economic incentive for higher quality goods. What the manufacturer doesn’t make in sales could be offset with insurance, and being a purely financial product doesn’t generate an impact in energy use, residues, etc… in addition to being a steady revenue, something companies today are trying to get with all sorts of membership plans.
  - seventytwo 3y ago
    Zero people are going to insure an umbrella.
    - labster 3y ago
      Corporations are people, my friend. Homeowners insurance already covers household items, making it an umbrella policy.
    - hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
      There’s a company around here that offers a membership plan, allowing you to grab one umbrella on the automatic dispensers around the city. This sounds like insurance business model with extra convenience. The cost of just one month is already the price of an utilitarian umbrella, but you get a sturdy umbrella with UV protection.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      If it was a lifetime-durable one and I knew the insurance wasn't total bullshit[0], I definitely would. -- [0] - Customer trust in the whole enterprise is always an underappreciated factor.
      - saalweachter 3y ago
        It used to be a feature of some manufacturers/sellers -- Tupperware, Cutco, Land's End (or was it LL Bean), you could return damaged items even decades later and have them replaced.
- chihuahua 3y ago
  Many years ago, I used to like expensive pens. Over the years, they were either stolen, lost, or damaged, so I realized the futility of expensive pens. Now I'm used to disposable pens, where I don't have to worry about whatever happens to them. At the same time, I have a lime-green plastic mechanical pencil that I got from a Microsoft printer room, and it's probably about 8 years old by now. This one never gets stolen, lost, or damaged.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    My ideal pen price point is about $20. That’s where I can get good ones I enjoy using (Lamy Safari etc.) that I’ll keep track of. It also wouldn’t ruin my day to lose one.
bee_rider 3y ago
Hmm, I’m not sure what it means to consider the Y times as many people being employed making umbrellas as an externality. I mean, there are more damaging (for the world) and more unpleasant (for them) things they could get up to.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Making glass is probably a good industry to work in, but we don’t wish to employ window breakers to keep them busy.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Two thoughts: First: Are glass makers/window breakers actually an externality? I guess the broken glass (not cleaned up by anybody, so the price is foist on society) could be considered an externality, but that isn’t typically the point of that story. Aside: Or maybe, since breaking windows is usually a crime, having people break windows as a job might incline them toward other crimes. And further, if the field of window breaking is lucrative and these window-breakers become admired as a result, it could maybe cause a general increased tendency toward criminality in society! This could be seen as an externality, bringing in the other story about broken windows. Maybe we’re close to discovering the grand unified theory of broken windows! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory . Second: Poorly made umbrellas seem quite different from glass makers/breakers. There’s a price:quality trade off with umbrellas, it just isn’t where you (and I, actually, I prefer a good solid umbrella too) want it to be. The glass maker/breaker story is about the silliness of intentionally destroying something the folks who made it can make money replacing it. Anyway, I think the umbrella employees aren’t an externality, they are just part of the cost of doing business.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  There's also Y times more marketing, which is the more damaging negative externality.
greenie_beans 3y ago
bought a pair of levis in december, they now have a hole in the crouch! this is the second pair in two years that have done that. thought it might be user error, but they used to not do this.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Where did you get them? They make jeans as nice or as cheaply as stores want to carry. This thread is representative of what I’m talking about: https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/comments/uf591v/has_levis_jeans_quality_become_worse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/comments/uf591v/has_le... The pair you find at an outlet is not the same as what you’d get from their online store, let alone their “premium” or “vintage” lines.
  - greenie_beans 3y ago
    i bought them online during a sale, was that my problem?
    - kstrauser 3y ago
      Wow, I’m not sure. I hope not. That’s exactly how I got my recent-ish “nice” jeans. I’m not especially attached to Levis. They were just a convenient example for why I think (hope!) the nicer ones were worth the extra money. I’m certain lots of people who could point us at something much better, although perhaps with a proportional price tag.

nickff 3y ago

I agree with some of your points, but what about the frustration when someone breaks their nice & expensive umbrella by accident, or has it stolen from them? What about the inconvenience and anxiety of not wanting to lose it? What about not having a spare to lend (but actually give) to a friend or loved one?

kstrauser 3y ago
Those are valid concerns, but I've found I keep my nicer stuff way longer than the cheaper things they replace. I'm happy if I make it through a couple months with $30 sunglasses. I've had the same nicer ones for more than proportionally longer. For me, the difference is that I'm more watchful of the nice things. I'm not about to take off my good sunglasses and leave them somewhere that I'll forget about them. I know where my nice (not expensive, just nice and functional) water bottle is. I've kept the same pocket knife for many years because I'd go back and get it if I forgot to put it right back in my pocket after using it, which I wouldn't do, because it's nice and I subconsciously keep track of it. However, I'm not dogmatic about this stuff. I want to own my stuff and not have it own me. There's a half-empty six pack of dirt cheap portable umbrellas over next to my shoe rack so I can dole them out to my kids who'll inevitably lose them at school.
- bch 3y ago
  >> I swore off buying junky stuff a long time ago. Life’s too short to be surrounded by crap that’s going to break the first time you look at it wrong, student projects be damned. > For me, the difference is that I'm more watchful of the nice things. Or, the items come to integrate themselves into personal rituals. Like you said, you want to own your things, and not vice-versa, so its nice to not stress over them, but have them joyfully integrated into your life.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    For sure. Everyone here who doesn’t carry a bag knows the routine: you stand up to leave and pat your pockets to make sure they’re all filled with the expected things. I also have a glasses case that’s always holding either my regular glasses or sunglasses. My umbrella goes right to the umbrella holder. Huh, spelling it all out that sounds similar to my ADHD rituals, for good reason. I’ve done so many things until they’re automatic habits.
hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
Insurance. The ability to quickly and more broadly insure any item, that would actually be a great economic incentive for higher quality goods. What the manufacturer doesn’t make in sales could be offset with insurance, and being a purely financial product doesn’t generate an impact in energy use, residues, etc… in addition to being a steady revenue, something companies today are trying to get with all sorts of membership plans.
- seventytwo 3y ago
  Zero people are going to insure an umbrella.
  - labster 3y ago
    Corporations are people, my friend. Homeowners insurance already covers household items, making it an umbrella policy.
  - hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
    There’s a company around here that offers a membership plan, allowing you to grab one umbrella on the automatic dispensers around the city. This sounds like insurance business model with extra convenience. The cost of just one month is already the price of an utilitarian umbrella, but you get a sturdy umbrella with UV protection.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    If it was a lifetime-durable one and I knew the insurance wasn't total bullshit[0], I definitely would. -- [0] - Customer trust in the whole enterprise is always an underappreciated factor.
    - saalweachter 3y ago
      It used to be a feature of some manufacturers/sellers -- Tupperware, Cutco, Land's End (or was it LL Bean), you could return damaged items even decades later and have them replaced.
chihuahua 3y ago
Many years ago, I used to like expensive pens. Over the years, they were either stolen, lost, or damaged, so I realized the futility of expensive pens. Now I'm used to disposable pens, where I don't have to worry about whatever happens to them. At the same time, I have a lime-green plastic mechanical pencil that I got from a Microsoft printer room, and it's probably about 8 years old by now. This one never gets stolen, lost, or damaged.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  My ideal pen price point is about $20. That’s where I can get good ones I enjoy using (Lamy Safari etc.) that I’ll keep track of. It also wouldn’t ruin my day to lose one.

bee_rider 3y ago

Hmm, I’m not sure what it means to consider the Y times as many people being employed making umbrellas as an externality. I mean, there are more damaging (for the world) and more unpleasant (for them) things they could get up to.

kstrauser 3y ago
Making glass is probably a good industry to work in, but we don’t wish to employ window breakers to keep them busy.
- bee_rider 3y ago
  Two thoughts: First: Are glass makers/window breakers actually an externality? I guess the broken glass (not cleaned up by anybody, so the price is foist on society) could be considered an externality, but that isn’t typically the point of that story. Aside: Or maybe, since breaking windows is usually a crime, having people break windows as a job might incline them toward other crimes. And further, if the field of window breaking is lucrative and these window-breakers become admired as a result, it could maybe cause a general increased tendency toward criminality in society! This could be seen as an externality, bringing in the other story about broken windows. Maybe we’re close to discovering the grand unified theory of broken windows! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory . Second: Poorly made umbrellas seem quite different from glass makers/breakers. There’s a price:quality trade off with umbrellas, it just isn’t where you (and I, actually, I prefer a good solid umbrella too) want it to be. The glass maker/breaker story is about the silliness of intentionally destroying something the folks who made it can make money replacing it. Anyway, I think the umbrella employees aren’t an externality, they are just part of the cost of doing business.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
There's also Y times more marketing, which is the more damaging negative externality.

greenie_beans 3y ago

bought a pair of levis in december, they now have a hole in the crouch! this is the second pair in two years that have done that. thought it might be user error, but they used to not do this.

kstrauser 3y ago
Where did you get them? They make jeans as nice or as cheaply as stores want to carry. This thread is representative of what I’m talking about: https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/comments/uf591v/has_levis_jeans_quality_become_worse/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/comments/uf591v/has_le... The pair you find at an outlet is not the same as what you’d get from their online store, let alone their “premium” or “vintage” lines.
- greenie_beans 3y ago
  i bought them online during a sale, was that my problem?
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    Wow, I’m not sure. I hope not. That’s exactly how I got my recent-ish “nice” jeans. I’m not especially attached to Levis. They were just a convenient example for why I think (hope!) the nicer ones were worth the extra money. I’m certain lots of people who could point us at something much better, although perhaps with a proportional price tag.