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> In the weeks following the surgery, a number of threads retracted from the brain, resulting in a net decrease in the number of effective electrodes 1. Was th

> In the weeks following the surgery, a number of threads retracted from the brain, resulting in a net decrease in the number of effective electrodes 1. Was this expected/seen in animal studies? 2. Will it degrade further? Are follow-up surgeries needed?

aredox 2y ago
Yes Yes Yes Neuralink is putting the cart before the horse: none of what they are doing here are the true challenges of neural interfaces, which are: -either neurons move away from the stress caused by the probes -or neurons are killed by the probes. The lifetime of neural probes due to this problem is under a year, and let me remind you these direct probes need to be drilled into your skull. Neuralink is not solving anything: they are scoring cheap publicity points by doing something (signal analysis) nobody has done that much before, because it is too early to do it These guinea pigs will be worse off after neuralink will have (ab)used them for this publicity stunt.
- mlindner 2y ago
  You say they're doing things that are cheap and trivial, but isn't the major innovation of Neuralink the fact that they're using very fine wire probes? No one else has done this and instead used relatively hard fixed arrays of needles. This causes damage to blood vessels among other things. Neuralink's advantage is they exactly void this type of brain damage.
  - aredox 2y ago
    It is not true that "no one else has done this". Do you think neural interface researchers didn't thought of something like that? There are plenty of other electrode designs apart from the "nails board", and none solve the problem I mentioned well enough yet.
    - mlindner 2y ago
      Can you mention some? I've never heard of them.
      - aredox 2y ago
        10 & 8 years ago: https://youtu.be/Y4fmMVdDf3s?si=17rh9ydWHEwVcdO2 https://youtu.be/Y4fmMVdDf3s?si=17rh9ydWHEwVcdO2 https://youtu.be/RbnRY3eH3AU?si=lskZuSL5PjsufjDw https://youtu.be/RbnRY3eH3AU?si=lskZuSL5PjsufjDw 6 years ago: https://youtu.be/nM973fDmD6E?si=YY02bo9fHNG_HNXy https://youtu.be/nM973fDmD6E?si=YY02bo9fHNG_HNXy 11 months ago, but Lacour's lab was already on it 5 years ago: https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU Lacour's lecture 8 years ago: https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU (She's at the Wyss institute in Geneva) 2 years ago: https://youtu.be/aL7zEsfkibg?si=GkF6ll7rUDHSrcvl https://youtu.be/aL7zEsfkibg?si=GkF6ll7rUDHSrcvl
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  What brain startup has the right approach?
thelastquestion 2y ago
Neuralink has previously discussed their implantations in monkeys, in which they claim implantations for > 1 year with increasing performance (e.g., in their deep dive on youtube [1]). That would seem to indicate that this wasn't seen in animal studies (maybe just a matter of degree). Figure 04 they have in the article suggests a steady state may have been reached with respect to some factors, but I guess they could continue to improve things on the model side while still experiencing degradation if the improvements outpace the effect of degradation. Since this doesn't seem to impact safety, it doesn't seem like a follow-up surgery would be needed as long as the device continues to be useful; if it essentially became a brick then the patient would probably want it removed (which requires another surgery). They've never talked about any surgeries for "maintenance" before, and given the size of the threads, I doubt the same previously implanted ones could be reinserted. 1. Neuralink Show and Tell, Fall 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YreDYmXTYi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YreDYmXTYi4)
mlindner 2y ago
> 2. Will it degrade further? Are follow-up surgeries needed? They said in the weeks following and it doesn't seem to have continued to happen. However I would expect things to degrade eventually as this is still very early days.
HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
Why are the electrodes retracting?

aredox 2y ago

Yes Yes Yes Neuralink is putting the cart before the horse: none of what they are doing here are the true challenges of neural interfaces, which are: -either neurons move away from the stress caused by the probes -or neurons are killed by the probes. The lifetime of neural probes due to this problem is under a year, and let me remind you these direct probes need to be drilled into your skull. Neuralink is not solving anything: they are scoring cheap publicity points by doing something (signal analysis) nobody has done that much before, because it is too early to do it These guinea pigs will be worse off after neuralink will have (ab)used them for this publicity stunt.

mlindner 2y ago
You say they're doing things that are cheap and trivial, but isn't the major innovation of Neuralink the fact that they're using very fine wire probes? No one else has done this and instead used relatively hard fixed arrays of needles. This causes damage to blood vessels among other things. Neuralink's advantage is they exactly void this type of brain damage.
- aredox 2y ago
  It is not true that "no one else has done this". Do you think neural interface researchers didn't thought of something like that? There are plenty of other electrode designs apart from the "nails board", and none solve the problem I mentioned well enough yet.
  - mlindner 2y ago
    Can you mention some? I've never heard of them.
    - aredox 2y ago
      10 & 8 years ago: https://youtu.be/Y4fmMVdDf3s?si=17rh9ydWHEwVcdO2 https://youtu.be/Y4fmMVdDf3s?si=17rh9ydWHEwVcdO2 https://youtu.be/RbnRY3eH3AU?si=lskZuSL5PjsufjDw https://youtu.be/RbnRY3eH3AU?si=lskZuSL5PjsufjDw 6 years ago: https://youtu.be/nM973fDmD6E?si=YY02bo9fHNG_HNXy https://youtu.be/nM973fDmD6E?si=YY02bo9fHNG_HNXy 11 months ago, but Lacour's lab was already on it 5 years ago: https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU Lacour's lecture 8 years ago: https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU https://youtu.be/Qsvo_O4-amg?si=T1qucWm0vEN9jrNU (She's at the Wyss institute in Geneva) 2 years ago: https://youtu.be/aL7zEsfkibg?si=GkF6ll7rUDHSrcvl https://youtu.be/aL7zEsfkibg?si=GkF6ll7rUDHSrcvl
brcmthrowaway 2y ago
What brain startup has the right approach?

thelastquestion 2y ago

Neuralink has previously discussed their implantations in monkeys, in which they claim implantations for > 1 year with increasing performance (e.g., in their deep dive on youtube [1]). That would seem to indicate that this wasn't seen in animal studies (maybe just a matter of degree). Figure 04 they have in the article suggests a steady state may have been reached with respect to some factors, but I guess they could continue to improve things on the model side while still experiencing degradation if the improvements outpace the effect of degradation. Since this doesn't seem to impact safety, it doesn't seem like a follow-up surgery would be needed as long as the device continues to be useful; if it essentially became a brick then the patient would probably want it removed (which requires another surgery). They've never talked about any surgeries for "maintenance" before, and given the size of the threads, I doubt the same previously implanted ones could be reinserted. 1. Neuralink Show and Tell, Fall 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YreDYmXTYi4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YreDYmXTYi4)

mlindner 2y ago

> 2. Will it degrade further? Are follow-up surgeries needed? They said in the weeks following and it doesn't seem to have continued to happen. However I would expect things to degrade eventually as this is still very early days.

HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago

Why are the electrodes retracting?