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Palestinians were being killed by Israelis in record numbers before Oct 7. Like I said above: Between Jan 1st 2023 and Oct 7th 2023, 278 Palestinians in the Wes

Palestinians were being killed by Israelis in record numbers before Oct 7. Like I said above: Between Jan 1st 2023 and Oct 7th 2023, 278 Palestinians in the West Bank (including 70 children) were killed by either the Israeli army or Israeli settler terrorists. So even if the Gaza genocide ends today and Israel signs the peace treaty offered and accepted by Hamas, we are still looking at number of victims which are nowhere to be found in the region. If we include wars from over 20 years ago, we should also include the numbers of atrocities committed by Israel against Palestinians in the same time period. Including the Great March of Return massacres in 2018-2019 where Israel murdered 223 Palestinians, most of whom were unarmed civilians. Now the total number of Palestinian victims probably won’t come anywhere near the total number of victims of the Iraq war, but a major difference is that Palestine is a lot smaller nations, and has had to suffer repeated atrocities, continuously throughout whichever time period we decide to start counting. But my point here is that Israel’s neighbors are not “kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel”.

rendall 2y ago
Even if you take "neighbor" literally as adjacent and so do not care to include Yemen or Sudan, then consider the death rate of Syria. 300 thousand civilians dead and counting. 3,000 Palestinians massacred in the Yarmouk Camp Siege. Ugly, that. You will no doubt be relieved to know that Israel is not the #1 killer of Muslims by any measure, neither now nor in the past. Armed with this new information, you will no doubt become a prominent anti-Assad and -ISIL activist, organizing marches through the streets, calling for a ceasefire?
- runarberg 2y ago
  What is the point of this whataboutism? Yes there are some metrics where you can find a bigger killer of Muslims then Israel. There are other metrics where Israel is larger. But even still, Israel is killing a lot of people. Being top 5 in killing Muslim is not something you can be proud of by saying, “look at the top 4 muslim killers here”.
  - rendall 2y ago
    > What is the point of this whataboutism? I'll answer, but I ask again: do you know what it is about the Palestinian cause that has you so exercised? Above, say, the Syrian or Sudanese or Yemen or Saudi or Iraqi or Lebanese causes, which are all far more deadly, even if you take Hamas' word for it. I mean, maybe you have an excellent reason...? My answer is that there is a lack of perspective when it comes to Israel. It's better that everyone understands the scale of the death and destruction in the region. What the people of Israel risk should the state fall. > Being top 5 in killing Muslim... Not top 5. Not even top 10. Don't take my word for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_th...
    - racional 2y ago
      If we start at 1936 (when the conflict in Palestine began in earnest), bucket by country (consistent with the fact that Israel's myriad wars up until the current one have been lumped together in a single "conflict"); and divide by net population -- then Israel's per-capita ranking does seem to take place 5 or so out of the 17 countries involved, in terms of the Arab/Muslim killing business. In terms of immediate neighbors - just behind (and much closer to) Lebanon and Syria, but much greater numerically than Jordan / Egypt / Saudi.
      - rendall 2y ago
        The conflict in Palestine started way earlier than that. At least since the end of the Ottoman Empire in 1917. Might have really gotten going with the Hebron Massacre of 1929 but even that was preceded by Arab riots beginning even in 1920. Jews were already well sick of Arabs' shit by the time 1948 rolled around.
        racional 2y ago
        Jews were already well sick of Arabs' shit Funny you should mention. At least some of the new arrivals from Europe were apparently "already well sick of the Arabs' shit" from the minute they landed in their new homeland. As Ahad Ha'am (Asher Zvi Ginsburg) wrote in 1891, regarding the early Zionist settlers: They were slaves in their land of exile, and they suddenly find themselves with unlimited freedom, the kind of wild freedom to be found only in a country like Turkey. This sudden change has engendered in them an impulse to despotism, as always happens when "a slave becomes a king," and behold they walk with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, unjustly encroaching on them, shamefully beating them for no good reason, and even bragging about what they do, and there is no one to stand in the breach and call a halt to this dangerous and despicable impulse. To be sure our people are correct in saying that the Arab respects only those who demonstrate strength and courage, but this is relevant only when he feels that his rival is acting justly; it is not the case if there is reason to think his rival's actions are oppressive and unjust. Of course by 1917 everyone knew what was up. As presaged by Herzl in his diary (1895): We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. The roots of the conflict run very deep indeed.
- racional 2y ago
  You will no doubt be relieved to know that Israel is not the #1 killer of Muslims by any measure, neither now nor in the past. The IDF is unequivocally the agent behind of the largest number of non-combatant Muslim deaths in a single country since Oct 7 (and most likely including all of 2023). More than Darfur, Myanmar, Yemen and Syria presently. The same outfit which holds itself up as "the most moral army in the world".

rendall 2y ago

Even if you take "neighbor" literally as adjacent and so do not care to include Yemen or Sudan, then consider the death rate of Syria. 300 thousand civilians dead and counting. 3,000 Palestinians massacred in the Yarmouk Camp Siege. Ugly, that. You will no doubt be relieved to know that Israel is not the #1 killer of Muslims by any measure, neither now nor in the past. Armed with this new information, you will no doubt become a prominent anti-Assad and -ISIL activist, organizing marches through the streets, calling for a ceasefire?

runarberg 2y ago
What is the point of this whataboutism? Yes there are some metrics where you can find a bigger killer of Muslims then Israel. There are other metrics where Israel is larger. But even still, Israel is killing a lot of people. Being top 5 in killing Muslim is not something you can be proud of by saying, “look at the top 4 muslim killers here”.
- rendall 2y ago
  > What is the point of this whataboutism? I'll answer, but I ask again: do you know what it is about the Palestinian cause that has you so exercised? Above, say, the Syrian or Sudanese or Yemen or Saudi or Iraqi or Lebanese causes, which are all far more deadly, even if you take Hamas' word for it. I mean, maybe you have an excellent reason...? My answer is that there is a lack of perspective when it comes to Israel. It's better that everyone understands the scale of the death and destruction in the region. What the people of Israel risk should the state fall. > Being top 5 in killing Muslim... Not top 5. Not even top 10. Don't take my word for it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_conflicts_in_th...
  - racional 2y ago
    If we start at 1936 (when the conflict in Palestine began in earnest), bucket by country (consistent with the fact that Israel's myriad wars up until the current one have been lumped together in a single "conflict"); and divide by net population -- then Israel's per-capita ranking does seem to take place 5 or so out of the 17 countries involved, in terms of the Arab/Muslim killing business. In terms of immediate neighbors - just behind (and much closer to) Lebanon and Syria, but much greater numerically than Jordan / Egypt / Saudi.
    - rendall 2y ago
      The conflict in Palestine started way earlier than that. At least since the end of the Ottoman Empire in 1917. Might have really gotten going with the Hebron Massacre of 1929 but even that was preceded by Arab riots beginning even in 1920. Jews were already well sick of Arabs' shit by the time 1948 rolled around.
      - racional 2y ago
        Jews were already well sick of Arabs' shit Funny you should mention. At least some of the new arrivals from Europe were apparently "already well sick of the Arabs' shit" from the minute they landed in their new homeland. As Ahad Ha'am (Asher Zvi Ginsburg) wrote in 1891, regarding the early Zionist settlers: They were slaves in their land of exile, and they suddenly find themselves with unlimited freedom, the kind of wild freedom to be found only in a country like Turkey. This sudden change has engendered in them an impulse to despotism, as always happens when "a slave becomes a king," and behold they walk with the Arabs in hostility and cruelty, unjustly encroaching on them, shamefully beating them for no good reason, and even bragging about what they do, and there is no one to stand in the breach and call a halt to this dangerous and despicable impulse. To be sure our people are correct in saying that the Arab respects only those who demonstrate strength and courage, but this is relevant only when he feels that his rival is acting justly; it is not the case if there is reason to think his rival's actions are oppressive and unjust. Of course by 1917 everyone knew what was up. As presaged by Herzl in his diary (1895): We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. The roots of the conflict run very deep indeed.
racional 2y ago
You will no doubt be relieved to know that Israel is not the #1 killer of Muslims by any measure, neither now nor in the past. The IDF is unequivocally the agent behind of the largest number of non-combatant Muslim deaths in a single country since Oct 7 (and most likely including all of 2023). More than Darfur, Myanmar, Yemen and Syria presently. The same outfit which holds itself up as "the most moral army in the world".