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Can underlying principles be discovered using the framework of scientific method? The primary goal of models and theories it develops is to support more experi

Can underlying principles be discovered using the framework of scientific method? The primary goal of models and theories it develops is to support more experiments and eventually be disproven. If no model can be correct, complete and provable in finite time, then a theory about underlying principles that claims completeness would have to be unfalsifiable. This is reasonable in context of philosophy, but not in natural sciences. Scientific method can help us rule out what underlying principles are definitely not. Any such principles are not actually up to be “discovered”. If probabilistic ML comes along and does a decent job at predicting things, we should keep in mind that those predictions are made not in context of absolute truth, but in context of theories and models we have previously developed. I.e., it’s not just that it can predict how molecules interact, but that the entire concept of molecules is an artifact of just some model we (humans) came up with previously—a model which, per above, is probably incomplete/incorrect. (We could or should use this prediction to improve our model or come up with a better one, though.) Even if a future ML product could be creative enough to actually come up with and iterate on models all on its own from first principles, it would not be able to give us the answer to the question of underlying principles for the above-mentioned reasons. It could merely suggest us another incomplete/incorrect model; to believe otherwise would be to ascribe it qualities more fit for religion than science.

jltsiren 2y ago
I don't find that argument convincing. People clearly have been able to discover many underlying principles using the scientific method. Then they have been able to explain and predict many complex phenomena using the discovered principles, and create even more complex phenomena based on that. Complex phenomena such as the technology we are using for this discussion. Words dont have any inherent meaning, just the meaning they gain from usage. The entire concept of truth is an artifact of just some model (language) we came up with previously—a model which, per above, is probably incomplete/incorrect. The kind of absolute truth you are talking about may make sense when discussing philosophy or religion. Then there is another idea of truth more appropriate for talking about the empirical world. Less absolute, less immutable, less certain, but more practical.
- strogonoff 2y ago
  > The kind of absolute truth you are talking about may make sense when discussing philosophy or religion. Exactly—except you are talking about it, too. When you say “discovering underlying principles”, you are implying the idea of absolute truth where there is none—the principles are not discovered, they are modeled, and that model is our fallible human construct. It’s a similar mistake as where you wrote “explain”: every model (there should always be more than one) provides a metaphor that 1) first and foremost, jives with our preexisting understanding of the world, and 2) offers a lossy map of some part of [directly inaccessible] reality from a particular angle—but not any sort of explanation with absolute truth in mind. Unless you treat scientific method as something akin to religion, which is a common fallacy and philosophical laziness, it does not possess any explanatory powers—and that is very much by design.
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Now we come back to words gaining their meaning from usage. You are assigning meanings to words like "discovering", "principles", and "explain" that other people don't share. Particularly people doing science. Because these absolute philosophical meanings are impossible in the real world, they are also useless when discussing the reality. Reserving common words for impossible concepts would not make sense. It would only hinder communication.
    - strogonoff 2y ago
      I can see what you mean. Then perhaps you could give a non-circular definition of what you mean by “underlying principles” and how that is different from any other prediction or model to deserve this distinct and quite strong-sounding term? or what you mean by “explain” that is different from “predict” or “model” to warrant such a distinctive term, and where exactly such explanatory activity fits within scientific method?
      - jltsiren 2y ago
        Communication is inherently circular, and words don't have definitions. But people are often capable of discovering what a particular word means in a particular context. And other people can sometimes help that by giving useful explanations. Science is pretty much the same. We can often discover how the reality works, and use the discoveries to explain many things. Somehow that keeps happening all the time, even if we can never be fully sure about anything.

jltsiren 2y ago

I don't find that argument convincing. People clearly have been able to discover many underlying principles using the scientific method. Then they have been able to explain and predict many complex phenomena using the discovered principles, and create even more complex phenomena based on that. Complex phenomena such as the technology we are using for this discussion. Words dont have any inherent meaning, just the meaning they gain from usage. The entire concept of truth is an artifact of just some model (language) we came up with previously—a model which, per above, is probably incomplete/incorrect. The kind of absolute truth you are talking about may make sense when discussing philosophy or religion. Then there is another idea of truth more appropriate for talking about the empirical world. Less absolute, less immutable, less certain, but more practical.

strogonoff 2y ago
> The kind of absolute truth you are talking about may make sense when discussing philosophy or religion. Exactly—except you are talking about it, too. When you say “discovering underlying principles”, you are implying the idea of absolute truth where there is none—the principles are not discovered, they are modeled, and that model is our fallible human construct. It’s a similar mistake as where you wrote “explain”: every model (there should always be more than one) provides a metaphor that 1) first and foremost, jives with our preexisting understanding of the world, and 2) offers a lossy map of some part of [directly inaccessible] reality from a particular angle—but not any sort of explanation with absolute truth in mind. Unless you treat scientific method as something akin to religion, which is a common fallacy and philosophical laziness, it does not possess any explanatory powers—and that is very much by design.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Now we come back to words gaining their meaning from usage. You are assigning meanings to words like "discovering", "principles", and "explain" that other people don't share. Particularly people doing science. Because these absolute philosophical meanings are impossible in the real world, they are also useless when discussing the reality. Reserving common words for impossible concepts would not make sense. It would only hinder communication.
  - strogonoff 2y ago
    I can see what you mean. Then perhaps you could give a non-circular definition of what you mean by “underlying principles” and how that is different from any other prediction or model to deserve this distinct and quite strong-sounding term? or what you mean by “explain” that is different from “predict” or “model” to warrant such a distinctive term, and where exactly such explanatory activity fits within scientific method?
    - jltsiren 2y ago
      Communication is inherently circular, and words don't have definitions. But people are often capable of discovering what a particular word means in a particular context. And other people can sometimes help that by giving useful explanations. Science is pretty much the same. We can often discover how the reality works, and use the discoveries to explain many things. Somehow that keeps happening all the time, even if we can never be fully sure about anything.