4 ms·

They’ve all changed massively in other ways during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries too as linguistic and cultural diversity began to significantly dwindl

by com 2y ago

They’ve all changed massively in other ways during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries too as linguistic and cultural diversity began to significantly dwindle under “modern nation-state” style cultural policies, try finding young Oc speakers in the southern half of France these days, followed by the collapse of multinational states (mainly the Habsburg state of course) followed by brutal ethnic cleaning and genocide that’s still going on in old pockets of that ex-empire today. These places have experienced continuous and significantly rapid linguistic and cultural change for centuries now. If anything high levels of literacy and experience of integrating minorities by force over the last centuries might be making this latest set of changes fairly gentle and manageable…

octopoc 2y ago
I think you guys might be talking past each other. Obviously everyone agrees that many Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations. The difference between historical diversity and the woke kind is that people from other continents, with very non-European cultures and ethnic mindsets, are coming to Europe. Obviously those are two very different kinds of diversity.
- snowpid 2y ago
  "Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations" No, most didn't. Europe wasn't peaceful for a very long time.
  - octopoc 2y ago
    TBH it comes across like you're being contrary, not curious. Yes, there's been lots of war. But there are also examples like Switzerland where French- and German- and Italian-speaking people coexist. No, it's not THE SAME EVERYWHERE, but nothing is. But my larger point is, that kind of diversity, while it has had some success in Europe, is a very different thing from the woke kind of diversity.
    - snowpid 2y ago
      But why do you make wrong statements? While French or German speakers in Switzerland works, It didn't work between Germany and France between you know 1810 and 1945. If you grow up in Germany and France this would not be a surprise. Europe had lots of problems in the past (and usually people learn them in high school). You deny them just because of migration which both happen to be starting in the Germanys and France way earlier before the last 20 years (and also the discussions!). This also a known fact for people who care about these countries. And this is JUST Germany and France. This is not Europe. If you curious about European or German history start the Wikipedia article , visit the countries instead of following American far right twitter accounts about migration.
      - octopoc 2y ago
        Actually I hardly ever spend time on Twitter. I prefer reading original sources and trying to decipher biases that are less subtle than the biases on Wikipedia, and therefore more easily read between the lines. But most importantly I’m neither right nor left. I’m non ideological, which means I think all ideologies have at least some truth and many have good ideas, but I’m not going to subscribe to any specific one. I invite you to expand your mental model to include more than just two ways of thinking, left vs. right.
        snowpid 2y ago
        "which means I think all ideologies have at least some truth " I doubt it. National Socialism and Communism are clearly counter examples. I'm very curious why haven't you thought about these very important ideologies in European history (both killed millions of Europeans) "mental model to include more than just two ways of thinking, left vs. right." I do. I guess because you haven't mention which European country you are from and the typical demographic of HN, that you are American. And the American mind can not comprehend European history and links between various conflicts. So most peopöe can not put together into two bins of Politics like in the American election system.

by com 2y ago

octopoc 2y ago

I think you guys might be talking past each other. Obviously everyone agrees that many Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations. The difference between historical diversity and the woke kind is that people from other continents, with very non-European cultures and ethnic mindsets, are coming to Europe. Obviously those are two very different kinds of diversity.

snowpid 2y ago
"Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations" No, most didn't. Europe wasn't peaceful for a very long time.
- octopoc 2y ago
  TBH it comes across like you're being contrary, not curious. Yes, there's been lots of war. But there are also examples like Switzerland where French- and German- and Italian-speaking people coexist. No, it's not THE SAME EVERYWHERE, but nothing is. But my larger point is, that kind of diversity, while it has had some success in Europe, is a very different thing from the woke kind of diversity.
  - snowpid 2y ago
    But why do you make wrong statements? While French or German speakers in Switzerland works, It didn't work between Germany and France between you know 1810 and 1945. If you grow up in Germany and France this would not be a surprise. Europe had lots of problems in the past (and usually people learn them in high school). You deny them just because of migration which both happen to be starting in the Germanys and France way earlier before the last 20 years (and also the discussions!). This also a known fact for people who care about these countries. And this is JUST Germany and France. This is not Europe. If you curious about European or German history start the Wikipedia article , visit the countries instead of following American far right twitter accounts about migration.
    - octopoc 2y ago
      Actually I hardly ever spend time on Twitter. I prefer reading original sources and trying to decipher biases that are less subtle than the biases on Wikipedia, and therefore more easily read between the lines. But most importantly I’m neither right nor left. I’m non ideological, which means I think all ideologies have at least some truth and many have good ideas, but I’m not going to subscribe to any specific one. I invite you to expand your mental model to include more than just two ways of thinking, left vs. right.
      - snowpid 2y ago
        "which means I think all ideologies have at least some truth " I doubt it. National Socialism and Communism are clearly counter examples. I'm very curious why haven't you thought about these very important ideologies in European history (both killed millions of Europeans) "mental model to include more than just two ways of thinking, left vs. right." I do. I guess because you haven't mention which European country you are from and the typical demographic of HN, that you are American. And the American mind can not comprehend European history and links between various conflicts. So most peopöe can not put together into two bins of Politics like in the American election system.