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Europe was rich because its nations were high trust societies. They were ethnic monocultures with social cohesion, shared history, religion, and culturally alig

Europe was rich because its nations were high trust societies. They were ethnic monocultures with social cohesion, shared history, religion, and culturally aligned, peaceful, productive populations.

snowpid 2y ago
" They were ethnic monocultures with social cohesion, shared history, religion, and culturally aligned, peaceful, productive populations. " I like to hear, when this was the case for Germany, Italy, France, Spain, UK or Poland but I dont know any timespan when this was the case.
- willmadden 2y ago
  Are you claiming that the ethnic composition of every country you listed hasn't changed dramatically over the last 25 years due to mass immigration from African and Middle Eastern countries?
  - com 2y ago
    They’ve all changed massively in other ways during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries too as linguistic and cultural diversity began to significantly dwindle under “modern nation-state” style cultural policies, try finding young Oc speakers in the southern half of France these days, followed by the collapse of multinational states (mainly the Habsburg state of course) followed by brutal ethnic cleaning and genocide that’s still going on in old pockets of that ex-empire today. These places have experienced continuous and significantly rapid linguistic and cultural change for centuries now. If anything high levels of literacy and experience of integrating minorities by force over the last centuries might be making this latest set of changes fairly gentle and manageable…
    - octopoc 2y ago
      I think you guys might be talking past each other. Obviously everyone agrees that many Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations. The difference between historical diversity and the woke kind is that people from other continents, with very non-European cultures and ethnic mindsets, are coming to Europe. Obviously those are two very different kinds of diversity.
      - snowpid 2y ago
        "Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations" No, most didn't. Europe wasn't peaceful for a very long time.
        octopoc 2y ago
        TBH it comes across like you're being contrary, not curious. Yes, there's been lots of war. But there are also examples like Switzerland where French- and German- and Italian-speaking people coexist. No, it's not THE SAME EVERYWHERE, but nothing is. But my larger point is, that kind of diversity, while it has had some success in Europe, is a very different thing from the woke kind of diversity.
        snowpid 2y ago
        But why do you make wrong statements? While French or German speakers in Switzerland works, It didn't work between Germany and France between you know 1810 and 1945. If you grow up in Germany and France this would not be a surprise. Europe had lots of problems in the past (and usually people learn them in high school). You deny them just because of migration which both happen to be starting in the Germanys and France way earlier before the last 20 years (and also the discussions!). This also a known fact for people who care about these countries. And this is JUST Germany and France. This is not Europe. If you curious about European or German history start the Wikipedia article , visit the countries instead of following American far right twitter accounts about migration.
        octopoc 2y ago
        Actually I hardly ever spend time on Twitter. I prefer reading original sources and trying to decipher biases that are less subtle than the biases on Wikipedia, and therefore more easily read between the lines. But most importantly I’m neither right nor left. I’m non ideological, which means I think all ideologies have at least some truth and many have good ideas, but I’m not going to subscribe to any specific one. I invite you to expand your mental model to include more than just two ways of thinking, left vs. right.
  - snowpid 2y ago
    I haven't deny your statement. Can you read my statement again? Where are you from?
  - bennyhill 2y ago
    You are saying that Europe is rich because it has recently become a melting pot similar to the US' role when it became rich?
morbicer 2y ago
Maybe in your dreams. Few counter points: - Austria-Hungaria was a multi ethnic, multi religious, multinational entity - Similar Holy Roman Empire before - House of Habsburgs at some point ruled parts of middle Europe, some Netherlands and Spain - Spain is a multi-national state till today, with strong tensions - Germany was for a long time only a loose group of small countries - Denmark ruling other Scandinavian countries - Religious wars devastated Europe for centuries - Social cohesion? Ever heard of French Revolution and hundred other uprisings? - Even though British Isles were not invaded after 1066 they had their fair share of infighting. Ask around Northern Ireland about peaceful religious unity Ethnostates are very recent occurrence and even then it's not 100%. The shared history is a history of non-stop wars. Europe was rich for all other reasons. Some noble (preserving Greco-Roman legacy, enlightenment, birth of democratic ideas etc), some external (mild climate, resources), some not so noble (exploiting colonies).
- willmadden 2y ago
  Wow, that's an impressive number of goal post moves in a single post. I'm talking about the last 25 years, or at least post industrial revolution. If you want to debate this in a neutral place, I'm happy to do so, but this isn't exactly a level playing field here on hacker news. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWibRxD_pY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWibRxD_pY
  - morbicer 2y ago
    Ignoring hundreds years of history is moving goalposts. Greetings from a country that almost overnight gained 5% of population from Ukraine (very welcomed by me). Ethnic tensions brought some of Europe's worst atrocities, not prosperity. Even in last 25 years, the Balkans are still sore. Post Industrial Revolution we had two world wars and many revolutions. Does your neutral debating place look like Europe's history?
  - Arnt 2y ago
    You're pretty good at moving goalposts yourself. What's particular about the last 25 years? I was at a conference this week where someone spoke about deploying software in the German administration. I translate one of his sentences: "If the northern states install Jitsi, the southern states are going to install Big Blue Button out of pure principle." (Germany is a federal state composed of 16 states.)
readthenotes1 2y ago
Europe was rich because of plunder, trade, and some respect for learning
- willmadden 2y ago
  That's incredibly offensive and complete bs.
  - readthenotes1 2y ago
    No, really, they did have some respect for learning.
    - willmadden 2y ago
      Europeans did not become wealthy from plunder and trade. That's preposterous. In fact, their monarchies were assassinated (Russian), overthrown (French), or otherwise forced into the twilight (UK) by non-European influences, starting in the 17th-18th century. The common Christian religions were brought to heel during the same time.
      - readthenotes1 2y ago
        The East Indies company's didn't exist, or the Compagnie du Congo Belge, etc. and no loot was transferred to Europe from the colonies? Shocking. You might want to visit the Louvre and the British Museum.
        willmadden 2y ago
        History is written by the victors. They also control the museums. You might want to read some alternative accounts of modern history with an open mind.
TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
Whole idea of nation or ethnicity did not even exist few hundred years ago. And Europe was everything but peaceful up until 1945. Don't forget that we had wars like "30 years war" where we have essentially depopulated central Europe just because one side had little bit different take on Christianity that the other.

Europe was rich because its nations were high trust societies. They were ethnic monocultures with social cohesion, shared history, religion, and culturally aligned, peaceful, productive populations.

snowpid 2y ago

" They were ethnic monocultures with social cohesion, shared history, religion, and culturally aligned, peaceful, productive populations. " I like to hear, when this was the case for Germany, Italy, France, Spain, UK or Poland but I dont know any timespan when this was the case.

willmadden 2y ago
Are you claiming that the ethnic composition of every country you listed hasn't changed dramatically over the last 25 years due to mass immigration from African and Middle Eastern countries?
- com 2y ago
  They’ve all changed massively in other ways during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries too as linguistic and cultural diversity began to significantly dwindle under “modern nation-state” style cultural policies, try finding young Oc speakers in the southern half of France these days, followed by the collapse of multinational states (mainly the Habsburg state of course) followed by brutal ethnic cleaning and genocide that’s still going on in old pockets of that ex-empire today. These places have experienced continuous and significantly rapid linguistic and cultural change for centuries now. If anything high levels of literacy and experience of integrating minorities by force over the last centuries might be making this latest set of changes fairly gentle and manageable…
  - octopoc 2y ago
    I think you guys might be talking past each other. Obviously everyone agrees that many Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations. The difference between historical diversity and the woke kind is that people from other continents, with very non-European cultures and ethnic mindsets, are coming to Europe. Obviously those are two very different kinds of diversity.
    - snowpid 2y ago
      "Europeans have coexisted within the same political structures for many generations" No, most didn't. Europe wasn't peaceful for a very long time.
      - octopoc 2y ago
        TBH it comes across like you're being contrary, not curious. Yes, there's been lots of war. But there are also examples like Switzerland where French- and German- and Italian-speaking people coexist. No, it's not THE SAME EVERYWHERE, but nothing is. But my larger point is, that kind of diversity, while it has had some success in Europe, is a very different thing from the woke kind of diversity.
        snowpid 2y ago
        But why do you make wrong statements? While French or German speakers in Switzerland works, It didn't work between Germany and France between you know 1810 and 1945. If you grow up in Germany and France this would not be a surprise. Europe had lots of problems in the past (and usually people learn them in high school). You deny them just because of migration which both happen to be starting in the Germanys and France way earlier before the last 20 years (and also the discussions!). This also a known fact for people who care about these countries. And this is JUST Germany and France. This is not Europe. If you curious about European or German history start the Wikipedia article , visit the countries instead of following American far right twitter accounts about migration.
        octopoc 2y ago
        Actually I hardly ever spend time on Twitter. I prefer reading original sources and trying to decipher biases that are less subtle than the biases on Wikipedia, and therefore more easily read between the lines. But most importantly I’m neither right nor left. I’m non ideological, which means I think all ideologies have at least some truth and many have good ideas, but I’m not going to subscribe to any specific one. I invite you to expand your mental model to include more than just two ways of thinking, left vs. right.
- snowpid 2y ago
  I haven't deny your statement. Can you read my statement again? Where are you from?
- bennyhill 2y ago
  You are saying that Europe is rich because it has recently become a melting pot similar to the US' role when it became rich?

morbicer 2y ago

Maybe in your dreams. Few counter points: - Austria-Hungaria was a multi ethnic, multi religious, multinational entity - Similar Holy Roman Empire before - House of Habsburgs at some point ruled parts of middle Europe, some Netherlands and Spain - Spain is a multi-national state till today, with strong tensions - Germany was for a long time only a loose group of small countries - Denmark ruling other Scandinavian countries - Religious wars devastated Europe for centuries - Social cohesion? Ever heard of French Revolution and hundred other uprisings? - Even though British Isles were not invaded after 1066 they had their fair share of infighting. Ask around Northern Ireland about peaceful religious unity Ethnostates are very recent occurrence and even then it's not 100%. The shared history is a history of non-stop wars. Europe was rich for all other reasons. Some noble (preserving Greco-Roman legacy, enlightenment, birth of democratic ideas etc), some external (mild climate, resources), some not so noble (exploiting colonies).

willmadden 2y ago
Wow, that's an impressive number of goal post moves in a single post. I'm talking about the last 25 years, or at least post industrial revolution. If you want to debate this in a neutral place, I'm happy to do so, but this isn't exactly a level playing field here on hacker news. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWibRxD_pY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoWibRxD_pY
- morbicer 2y ago
  Ignoring hundreds years of history is moving goalposts. Greetings from a country that almost overnight gained 5% of population from Ukraine (very welcomed by me). Ethnic tensions brought some of Europe's worst atrocities, not prosperity. Even in last 25 years, the Balkans are still sore. Post Industrial Revolution we had two world wars and many revolutions. Does your neutral debating place look like Europe's history?
- Arnt 2y ago
  You're pretty good at moving goalposts yourself. What's particular about the last 25 years? I was at a conference this week where someone spoke about deploying software in the German administration. I translate one of his sentences: "If the northern states install Jitsi, the southern states are going to install Big Blue Button out of pure principle." (Germany is a federal state composed of 16 states.)

readthenotes1 2y ago

Europe was rich because of plunder, trade, and some respect for learning

willmadden 2y ago
That's incredibly offensive and complete bs.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  No, really, they did have some respect for learning.
  - willmadden 2y ago
    Europeans did not become wealthy from plunder and trade. That's preposterous. In fact, their monarchies were assassinated (Russian), overthrown (French), or otherwise forced into the twilight (UK) by non-European influences, starting in the 17th-18th century. The common Christian religions were brought to heel during the same time.
    - readthenotes1 2y ago
      The East Indies company's didn't exist, or the Compagnie du Congo Belge, etc. and no loot was transferred to Europe from the colonies? Shocking. You might want to visit the Louvre and the British Museum.
      - willmadden 2y ago
        History is written by the victors. They also control the museums. You might want to read some alternative accounts of modern history with an open mind.

TheLoafOfBread 2y ago

Whole idea of nation or ethnicity did not even exist few hundred years ago. And Europe was everything but peaceful up until 1945. Don't forget that we had wars like "30 years war" where we have essentially depopulated central Europe just because one side had little bit different take on Christianity that the other.